To think the terms "neuro diverse" and "neuro typical" will be short lived.

[theplatformedge]

Diversity means "a range of many people or things that are very different from each other" (Oxford learner's dictionary), so the idea that a minority of people are "neuro diverse" and everyone else is "neuro typical" is not only semantically illogical, but also potentially offensive.

We're all different. Some people have traits that make life more difficult for them than others, whether it be ASD, ADHD or a range of other conditions, with spectrums of severity. Telling people that you're neuro-diverse is so vague as to be meaningless, and telling other people they are nero-typical when you have no idea what they're feeling inside is insensitive. Some people get a formal diagnosis for their symptoms, some people self-diagnose and others don't recognise it in themselves. Nobody knows how many people are living with these traits across the population, but the massive increase in diagnostics suggests they're a lot more common than anyone ever thought in the past, and therefore gradually becoming very "typical".

Discuss! 🙂

@Jimmyneutronsforehead it was an easy example. But plenty of people are born with physical disabilities.
Mild, moderate and severe are shorthand used for all physical disabilities. But are a big no no when it comes to neurodiversity.
I think it just makes those with profound autism invisible.

I haven't ever seen someone claim to be neurodiverse purely on the basis of having an anxiety disorder.

True but cancer patients don't tend to think they have the authority on all types of cancer / treatments etc unlike Some people with autism
Nor would you get a cancer paitient telling the parent of a child with cancer t
They have no right to talk about cancer in negative terms because it doesn't affect hem personally unlike some people with autism
My oldest son was diagnosed with Diabetes last year I'm on various face book groups for Diabetes ,and there is just not same arguing in those groups unllke there are for some autism groups I have Been.in

People with cancer will also say what stage the cancer is. It is graded.

Have a look at some of the graphics out there shoewng neurodiversity. The ones used by charities or in training. They do vary a lot. Some have a few conditions in them. But others are really broad. Anxiety is in quite a few of them. Ive seen them with epilepsy in too.

Some experts believe it is a form of ND as it can stem from differences in the brain's structure and also because it can have a genetic link and other elements similar to other conditions under the ND umbrella. It can also be co-morbid with other ND conditions so it's a complex picture.

Whether anxiety and OCD will come to be as universally accepted as ND conditions like ASD and ADHD remains to be seen but it's clear this area is still evolving and there is every chance we will see further, even bigger changes in the future as our science improves and we understand the brain better.

In terms of what we were talking about though, getting accommodations in the workplace or wherever, anxiety disorders don't need to come with a diagnosis of neurodivergence to be considered for accommodation in their own right.

I think there should be more flexibility in workplaces for everyone, not just for those with a formal diagnosis. And accommodations should be based more on the issue and duties etc rather, i.e. a kind of "fit note" basis where it's not the diagnosis that grants accommodations, but how the condition affects the person, given their role. I think what I'm saying is that we need workplaces (and I suppose all educational institutions too) to have a culture of flexibility for everyone and end the "one size fits all" approach. If we could change the culture, people wouldn't need to jump through hoops to get a formal diagnosis and that would also relieve pressure on healthcare workers.

No, but the people that I was referring to in that conversation had traits of anxiety rather than a full blown anxiety disorder. I was using them as an example alongside other 'NT' friends with OCD type behaviours etc to make the point that ND traits are rife and some have a huge impact on people's day to day lives. Why have an ND and NT distinction when very few people would be considered truly NT? Why imply it's black and white when it isn't?

I sometimes wonder why this is so badly received on MN because inevitably these threads attract a lot of people with ASD and this can be associated with quite rigid thinking. They have been told they are emphatically ND and this differentiates them from everyone else. I can imagine it's quite distressing to have this questioned and for posters to raise the grey areas and uncertainty that exists. I do sympathise with this but I blame the system for giving them false certainty when the science isn't there to substantiate this.

Cancer is a broad catchall for a number of different kinds of cancer.

Also it's a progressive disease. It has to be graded, because you access different treatments at each stage and have a varying chance of overcoming the disease.

Autism isn't a disease.

Apples to oranges on that one.

I don't know about other workplaces since I've worked in the same company for 20 years, but where I work it pretty much is the case that how your condition affects your role is what matters for accommodations. It's all individual anyway and would be based on a conversation with occupational health. I don't think anywhere offers accommodation purely on the basis of diagnosis, ie if you have autism you get XYZ accommodation, nothing more nothing less, never mind whether you do or don't need it.

My workplace also specifies you don't need a diagnosis to ask for accommodations as they recognise getting a diagnosis isn't always straightforward and waiting lists are long. I don't know how typical that is but I think that should be universal.

Why have an ND and NT distinction when very few people would be considered truly NT?
That’s simply not true. The vast majority of people are NT. Obviously not identical but their abilities fall within a certain acceptable range. People who are ND fall very far outside that range.

You write as if there is a definitive, universal definition of what an 'acceptable' range is when once again I must point out that we simply don't have the scientific knowledge to even begin to set these parameters in the way you describe. There are huge disagreements on what conditions fall under the ND umbrella let alone what markers and 'acceptable' ranges should be used and where the threshold for having the conditions should be. Currently we use an imperfect assessment looking at behaviour factors because it's the best tool we have and we serverly restrict access to assessments as we can't afford as nation to fund the support that those that will meet the criteria might. We have no real idea what ND actually is as brain scans and other clinical tools aren't capable of distinguishing an 'ND' brain from a NT' brain so we are hardly in a position to begin to estimate how many people truly are ND or indeed if such a categorisation is even useful or possible.

Genuinely don't understand why people are objecting so much to distinguishing conditions on the basis of mild, moderate, etc. I have mild dyslexia. That's a fact. Yes, I have dyslexia, but there are people with the same condition who have it much more severely and for whom it is a far major obstacle in life. I don't spend my time complaining that I have dyslexia and it's not fair to distinguish me from others who have it more significantly; I'm really glad that it's mild!
Ditto my daughter and her hayfever: I'm glad that it is mild, and do not see any issue in pointing this out.
My DB on the other hand, sadly, has severe autism. I would give an arm and a leg for that to someone be changed to mild autism. That's not to say the latter doesn't make life much harder, and of course, mild autism is way more difficult to live with/thrive with than mild dyslexia or mild hay fever.
That conditions change over time, getting either worse, or generally better with age, and that some people change from mild to moderate, or severe to moderate does not affect this. As a child I had moderate eczema; now it's mild. Yippee is my attitude.
Equally clearly mild, moderate, severe and profound are general terms: it does not mean with a milder version of the condition does not suffer from a particular aspect of their condition more significantly than everyone who has the condition in a generally moderate way. It's just a collective way of generalising how significantly someone is affected by something. If all people with Aspergers' syndrome are allowed to say they are autistic, then their does need to be a way of talking and explaining to others how significant this is, and so their needs to be a way of distinguishing. That does not mean they don't have the condition, whether it's autism, so called ND or anything else. Conditions which vary widely, or are not clearly defined are most in need of this - hence this arising with autism and ND, far more than with dyslexia.

@PrawnLiberationFront My workplace also specifies you don't need a diagnosis to ask for accommodations as they recognise getting a diagnosis isn't always straightforward and waiting lists are long. I don't know how typical that is but I think that should be universal.

That's actually a reflection of the law. Disability discrimination does not require a "diagnosis" of any condition - there are plenty of people, sometimes with quite severe difficulties, when the medics have no idea what the issue is. Although there are practical aspects too, such as waiting lists, the point is that legally as long as you have a physical or mental impairment which has more than a trivial interference with normal day-to-day-activities that has lasted for more than 12 months or is likely to, then you are disabled in law. (There are some exceptions to this general legal definition.)

The OP is flawed because that isn’t the correct application of the terms, so the argument is nonsensical.

The dichotomy is between (NT) neurotypical and (ND) neurodivergent people - those with typical brains and those whose brains diverge from the norm in some respect.

If you have a group entirely made of either NT or ND people, that group is not neurodiverse. A neurodiverse group (you can’t have a neurodiverse individual as there is only one of them) has a mixed selection of neurotypes - like in the definition in the OP - at least one NT person and also at least one ND person (some people also call quite reasonably call a group of ND people with different diagnoses a neurodiverse group).

Neurodiversity was actually a term autistic people coined not long after the internet became a thing and people started conversing from all over the world and from many different groups. Neurodivergence appears to be the new term though as like you say diversity includes everyone, including the ‘neurotypical’.

'If you don't have a diagnosis for a ND condition then by default you are considered NT. It is absolutely that binary.' No it isn't. You're usually told you don't meet the criteria at this time, or you don't meet the criteria for x, I've never heard of anyone being told by a professional that they are neurotypical as it isn't a medical term.

'You will see time and time again that there is a strong feeling, especially amongst the diagnosed community, that you can't self identify as having a condition no matter how much the traits and symptoms impact your life.' I have personally found the opposite.

'... so therefore would be considered NT for all intents and purposes.' Well no. but he may actually not be ND. Trauma mimics autism, has he suffered trauma? What makes you so sure it's autism? Has he asked for a second opinion? There are some bad diagnosticians out there I agree, but you seem really hung up on this, who is telling you this is how the autistic community feels? Because when I tell you the opposite, you still argue the point.

No it’s not just a term for those that don’t have a diagnosis. I have 2 dc, both diagnosed with Autism, one with autism,ADHD and dyspraxia but she’s the highest functioning of the two, youngest teen just has a diagnosis of autism but is almost non verbal and will need life long care. In my eyes ‘ND’ covers autism, ADHD, Aspergers, Dyspraxia, ADD, PDA etc…, not just ‘undiagnosed quirky people’.

Let's pretend for a moment that those online autism quizzes are an actual diagnostic tool, you know the ones where there are 40 questions and if you answer yes to 20 or more of them then the website says you might be autistic and should probably go for an assessment. I have 2 son's who have an autism diagnosis (son 1 and son 5) and 2 who are waiting to be assessed (son 2 and son 3). In general, autistic people will score 20-40 on this test. I am dyspraxic so I tend to score about 15. There are loads of people who aren't autistic but will have some traits and score a number less than 20. Then you get conditions that can go with autism like ocd, mental health problems and learning disabilities. My youngest scored 39 on that test but because he doesn't have learning disabilities he is still considered as having Aspergers syndrome, the same as my eldest son who scored 23 and has much milder symptoms.

Yeah we do, it's called maths and statistics, or maybe more specifically data analytics. Fair enough this may not be as incredibly precise as we would like but it's pretty accurate.

Spectrum's of all sorts can combine both quantitative and qualitative attributes to describe a wide range of complex conditions.

Just because we don't know exactly what causes an effect doesn't mean we can't identify that or those effects.

'Neurodiversity" was first used by a sociologist, then popularised by a journalist: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/neurodiversity. I posted an article up-thread that interviewed the sociologist recently, and it sounds like she would agree that the modern use of the term has morphed away from her original (logical) definition.

I'm guessing "neurodivergent" is an Americanism that has been popularised by the post-apocalyptic Divergent teen-fiction series.

My children and I are all ND, we each (apart from thr youngest who is waiting for his assessment) have diagnosis that put us in this category. If my Mother was assessed she most likely would be too, many of my maternal relatives are too.
Each of us are affected differently and for each of us it is a lifelong disability. The modern world isn't designed for any of us, it's as simple as that.
I wasn't diagnosed until I was 45, I have an ASD dx, I have always been autistic and it has genuinely affected me in all aspects of my life. I also have a very high IQ, but thanks to my autism I may have good exam results but have never been able to hold down a job.
I had a husband who took huge advantage of my vulnerability and abused in countless ways for 13years. He didn't need to do much to isolate me, I was already isolated.

My children have all been highly affected, whether they are non-verbal or verbal. In fact mental health wise my most verbal child is the one struggling the most. It's heartbreaking hearing your 10yo say he would be better off dead. My non-verbal, severely learning disabled child will never suffer those mental health issues, he'll never have the stress of trying to mask all day. In fact I'm convinced he thinks it's everyone else who has the problem.

What’s the point in having a spectrum? Surely there will be people on the milder end of the spectrum?

it feels like semantics.

It’s not semantics, it’s perspective. It’s a spectrum of needs, and every individual autistic person has varying strengths and need for additional support in different areas. This graph is a simplified representation, but obviously other things are taken into consideration.