Sacked for using 'N' word

[Horrace]

I don't know how to copy link sorry but has anyone been following the story of the Lloyd's bank manager who was sacked for asking a relevant question in a so called anti racism training session by his employers but in his question he used the full 'N' word.
His question I believe was how would he be expected to deal with black employees or customers speaking to each other using that word.
The trainer was so offended by the word, she had to take 5 days off work. However, he got sacked.
He has since been awarded £500,00 but no apology from Lloyd's and no job back.
As far as we know, the ridiculous incompetent trainer is still employed.

I am close to this story but afraid to say how.
But will say that I'm losing sleep and furious more and more at this bank.

Context is everything.

I find it ridiculous that any word in the English language should be deemed or legislated unutterable.

Some groups have faced hideous oppression, and still face discrimination. Other atrocities have occurred over time. Some words capture and bring this to the fore and should not be used in conversation.

However, suggesting they should never cross someone's lips (be that without exception, or with exceptions) is absurd. Reporting what others have said, expressing distress at what you have heard, is not unreasonable.

It is very controlling to demand that under no circumstances someone can never utter any given word. It is also ridiculous to suggest that uttering the N word if full is racist, colonialist, oppressive etc. is where madness lies. It also causes unnecessary upset, in fuelling others to get upset by something that is not malicious in any way.

Wasn't his question more about using professional language in a bank?

Local business to me it's used between black people (staff + customers). I don't really clock it very much as I'm a customer.

Sure, that’s because it’s none of your business. It’s not your business. If you’re not black, don’t use the word.

My DS is dyslexic and works in a high managerial post, he has managed easily never to say that word, certainly his dyslexia causes him some difficulties but using offensive terms is not one of them.
I think the dyslexia argument is a total red herring, detracts from the actual racism issue and is also insulting to people with dyslexia.

Surely the only question is whether the man was being racist intentionally or unintentionally. Given that it is easy enough to find other ways of asking his question without using the word, then I'd go for deliberate. But I can see that in fighting his case he would go down the road of unintentional. I don't think an unintentional racism argument warrants a hand out of half a million.

Then again I'm also not buying the five days off for shock business.
There needs to be proper communication so that these sort of conflicts can be resolved before it ever gets to this stage.
Everyone come out of this looking like an idiot.

He was a manager in a bank. Surely he had the common sense to deduce the following:

Employees: if two black employees were referring to themselves as the N word, then they should be reminded of the banks policy of using inappropriate language in a professional setting - in the same way two Scottish people calling each other cunts in an affectionate way would be.
Customers: two black customers using the N word in friendly banter/horseplay between each other could be asked to keep their voice down to an appropriate level, with no reference to the word in question, given that they are in a setting where excessive noise could be detrimental.
Two black people aggressively using the N word - same as two white people aggressively using any other swear word insults. Ejected and police called.

Now I don’t work for Lloyds, or any other bank for that matter, nor am I a manager, but I’d be very surprised if my layperson response differs significantly from the “official” response. Would be interested to see other opinions on this!

I totally get that @VanGoghsDog - my train of thought is such that I blurt words out, sometimes butting in on conversations - I just need to get the words out, often not thinking about the content or context. I was diagnosed in later life and it helped explained a few things. Thankfully my family/friends aren't easily offended (I've never used racist words though).

I work for a large bank, and we had a black colleague use the word when talking about someone else. It was reported (by a white colleage) and thankfully he was disciplined. Although not sacked. But reading this story I'm wondering whether he should have been?

Sounds like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. He shouldn’t have said it… even when pushed. But he didn’t need to get the sack for it and 5 days off for hearing a word is ridiculous!

I do however think that being a white middle class male is akin to being evil these days. I don’t understand why people think that discrimination against one group cancels out discrimination against another.

Some white middle class men are arseholes
Some women are arseholes
Some gay/bi/trans people are arseholes
Some ethnic minorities are arseholes

Clue is - arseholes are arseholes, no matter what they look like or their sexual preference

This is half hilarious and half not.

Let’s be honest, Carl is a shit. He knew in the incredibly unlikely event that was to ever happen in his hearing in a professional environment, he should mind his own damn business. Carl 100% knew what he was doing, chose to be facetious and for his troubles he received a £500,000 payout. There is no need to feel sorry for this man. I do genuinely wonder if many victims of persistent racism in the workplace can claim to have received this much.

Further up thread, it was mentioned that some of his colleagues supported him and that they were poc. I can’t see anything mentioning the race of these colleagues. However, this is why I genuinely believe, unless the person is your parent or your partner, if they are being accused of racism, do not put yourself out extricate them from the situation they got themselves in. Lest they then turn around, aggrieved and embarrass you by publicly claiming white, middle-aged men are at the bottom of everything.

According to the report he ... described the issue without using the word. The trainer then said they didn't know what he meant. He then used the word

If this is true it changes things considerably, since to suggest such a trainer didn't know what the n word means and needed clarification is clearly ridiculous

Not having been there I don't want to assume, but have to wonder if the guy was deliberately targeted for some baiting

Taking a week off work because you heard an offensive word is fucking ridiculous.

I agree. And I can't take anyone seriously if they are claiming to have been discriminated against because they are a while,middle aged middle class man.
I also suspect it was his attitude that made the trainer anxious not just him saying the word

But the tribunal was about his dyslexia affected him, not about how your son's dyslexia affects him.

Perhaps you should ask the judge to reconsider Carl's dyslexia issues in light of the overwhelming evidence that your son (a totally unrelated person who wasn't there) does not have the same issues with his dyslexia.

It's almost as if it presents differently in different people.

Yes, he should have. But not everyone knows that, especially if they’ve been specifically asked which word they mean.

Children are taught not to say it. My racist FIL knows he shouldn’t say it. Everyone knows you never say the word in full, you say ‘the N word’ if you have to describe it. I’m suspicious of anyone that says it in full.

He also described white middle aged males as being ‘bottom of everything’.....lol....that is very, very telling!

I've always declined this sort of training.
I don't and wouldn't use the word in question.
I don't do this training because I know the difference between wrong and right. I have seen the t content of the training and have found it to be racist. It's not inclusive.
It goes against character.
I'm off to bed. Goodnight vipers

I think your last paragraph was aimed at me, and I think you correctly worked out that I’m probably a teacher 😂

If someone calls me a stupid cunt I’m going to write them down, so I can differentiate between that and the four times that week I was called a stupid cow. Lol. But again, If the language involved is racist, I will clarify by saying “pupil a called pupil b the N word - a derogatory racist term” - this is particularly important when the racist term is not actually the N word (which is pretty unambiguous) but maybe the C or P slurs which refer to people of certain Asian countries - given that there are many more “swear words” which start with a C or a P than an N.

If this is true it changes things considerably, since to suggest such a trainer didn't know what the n word means and needed clarification is clearly ridiculous

No, according to the articles, he never tried to describe it as ‘the N word’. He first described it as an ‘offensive word’. Then he said it in full when asked which word. His answer clearly should have been ‘the N word’, not the word in full.

Quite a few people are convinced on this thread that he must be racist and did it on purpose but I think lots of people aren’t aware that context doesn’t matter anymore. It seems to be an idea from the USA. It used to be that context did matter.

I hope you are never empanelled on a jury.

Might not be. When I lived in Streatham, the young black men all called each other "[word under discussion]" all the day long. There were a lot of them around, and they weren't quiet. It was like living in a rap song 😏 Since rap artists still pepper their acts with that word, I assume their fans still pepper their talk with it. And that they have bank accounts.

Totally likely conversations in such a bank branch:
Between customers: "Yo, [word], how much you need for your ride?"
Customer to friend behind desk: "Hey, [word], you working here now?"

Whether the dyslexically oppressed white man had another agenda or not, it's perfectly valid to ask how employees should respond if they've been told not to tolerate use of this word by customers. As someone pointed out upthread, if a white person reprimands them for using what is cultural argot to them, that person could then be accused of racism. They do need clear guidance.

The trainer, though ... 🙄

She’s really not.

In fairness, he had had one go at finding an appropriate way to describe the word and the course leader encouraged him to be clearer. To say he was then too clear when all he did was respond to the course leader's question is I think a tad unfair.

The course leader should have been explicit and said "if you think the word might be unpleasant for others in the group, just give us the first letter". Otherwise the appropriate response would have been to thank the man for being open but explain that even in the context of the course, this language is not appropriate. I am sure the man would have agreed. Then leave it at that.

Don't take a week off, get the man sacked and cost the company a whole load of money.

I had a quick skim through the judgement and it indicates that there were other issues going on for the trainer and this was the straw that broke the camel's back for them.

You think anti racist training is racist? Lemme guess, it’s anti white racism, because white people working at Lloyd’s bank in the UK are so often subject to racist attacks, am I right? The poor whites.