Sacked for using 'N' word

[Horrace]

I don't know how to copy link sorry but has anyone been following the story of the Lloyd's bank manager who was sacked for asking a relevant question in a so called anti racism training session by his employers but in his question he used the full 'N' word.
His question I believe was how would he be expected to deal with black employees or customers speaking to each other using that word.
The trainer was so offended by the word, she had to take 5 days off work. However, he got sacked.
He has since been awarded £500,00 but no apology from Lloyd's and no job back.
As far as we know, the ridiculous incompetent trainer is still employed.

I am close to this story but afraid to say how.
But will say that I'm losing sleep and furious more and more at this bank.

“Gammon” is punching up in a way that, say, “chavs” is punching down.

Interesting given who wrote the article and who wrote a book called "Chavs" (and yes, i know, I've read it. But lovely white male middle class Owen Jones is in no position to tell people not to punch down)

As a late middle aged woman I have absolutely no issue with moving with embracing the progress we have made in society and the evolution of language that goes hand in hand with that.

However, even when I was a young child of 10 I remember being very aware that the N word was not acceptable, because my (working class) parents taught me so.

I'm so glad, and massively relief, that the court showed reasonability and compensated the upset that was caused to this person

The court actually recognised that what he did could have reasonably amounted to misconduct, but not gross misconduct.

Taking these factors into account, we find that a reasonable employer
could have considered the claimant’s use of the word to be misconduct,
because it was inappropriate and because some euphemism should have
been used. However, we do not think a reasonable employer would consider
it to be gross misconduct.

Does he need to pay tax on the £500k?

If people are genuinely disinhibited through illness then fair enough, there are pretty well established thoughts on culpability and competence, which is the only thing that's come into play in this case

Somd bits yes, some bits no.

Yes on any salary related pay out. No on compensation, injury to feelings, legal costs.

Benjamin Obadiah Iqbal Zephaniah

So you would sack a black McDonalds till operator who used the N word to greet his mate, just like he does every single time he meets him outside of work?

Did I say that?

1. the case did not turn on him being "disinhibited"
2. it's not a criminal trial so "culpability" isn't the concept they would have been considering.

He won his case because his disability (dyslexia) caused him to have confused thoughts, he tried to put things in a subtle way but was pushed to be clearer and he could not corale his thoughts into another way of saying it, plus obviously the word was in his head (in the context of what they were talking about, not because he's a racist twat [though I'm not saying he's not, that wasn't on trial]) and he used it in error.

The issue was that the employer did not take account of his disability when investigating and applying the sanction, that made the dismissal unfair (win 1) and amounted to disability discrimination (win 2).

Despite what a lot of people on here seem to be trying to say, dyslexia does cause disordered thinking for some people and it can mean people struggle with what is appropriate sometimes (my DP called someone at work a fat cunt a little while ago, I would never do that, but he was being goaded about some admin he had done wrong and his brain just took over).

Importantly, the claimant here testified that HIS dyslexia affects him that way, he must have been cross examined on that, and maybe even provided witnesses and other examples, but whichever, on the balance of probabilities (the evidential standard in civil cases) the judge and panel members believed him. And they felt the employer should have done more to understand this issue and taken account of it in their sanctioning.

It's all a bit 'he who shall not be named' for me personally.

No it's not, that's a false equivalence. Ppl didn't use the name Voldemort out of fear, however the most 'righteous' character (Dumbledore) refused to cave to that fear & did use it.

It's more akin to 'mudblood'.

Courts/factfinding etc
do you think the original employment tribunal judge was wrong to use the full words when quoting what Carl said?

I suspect the rules in tribunals are different. But I've never been in one.

do you really think courts say 'n word' when it comes up in cases involving racial abuse etc? I've worked in courts and sometimes people feel reluctant to use 'bad' words but it's essential to have clarity.

Again, having never been in court I couldn't tell you, however I imagine social norms are put aside. These questions are a bit strawmanny.

Literature and the arts
If I were to write a book/play about how black slaves were treated in the USA, then sanitising it by moderating language would surely be misleading and minimises the hell that slaves went through.

If you're white (I've no idea) you're probably not making this decision without input from the people affected. Much in the same way as a man living as a woman can't talk on what it's like to live as an actual woman, neither can a white person truly write about racism from anything other than an academic or 3rd person perspective.

I don't think it should be illegal to use it, we should just be better than that. If I heard it being used in malice I wouldn't think 'you should be in prison' I'd think that person was a prick & I'd likely tell them so.

I don't think the word should disappear but I do think that in time it will just be another word, though not likely in our lifetimes.

Despite what a lot of people on here seem to be trying to say, dyslexia does cause disordered thinking for some people and it can mean people struggle with what is appropriate sometimes (my DP called someone at work a fat cunt a little while ago, I would never do that, but he was being goaded about some admin he had done wrong and his brain just took over).

Sorry if I've used the wrong phrase but I thought that was disinhibited behaviour? Saying it doing something that you wouldn't normally because of how your brain works.

Also we're now talking about a lot of different things, my response was in relation to whether someone should ever say it, and whether it'd be bootable or not

@AnonnyMouseDave I don't care about it as long as white people don't use it. I also think some of the complainers about what black people do which white people should not, language wise, are closet racists.

That's not what "disinhibited" means to me, no.

People with dyslexia do not claim to be disinhibited. It's not tourettes, or dementia where that might be the case.

Here we go again with ignorance of a different kind. As long as white ppl don't say it, I can listen to the vile word all day long.

I have never heard black people say that word in England only from American music listening to Snoop Dog. It's in most rap music.

So you would sack the black employee who worked for McDonalds UK but not the McDonald US staff member?

Don't know who said that. IT's not.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

So nationality is not included as a protected characteristic? Well googling it, it would seem to be included in race.

So once again, for all those posters who think this guy was rightly dismissed for using this word in the context of asking a question as part of training, can could confirm that you also agree that someone saying 'excuse my French' after swearing should also be sacked?

If a white person says it to a black person it's triggering.

"In their circles of white friends, some are so comfortable with the n-word because they’ve grown up on and been nourished by hip-hop. Much of the commercial hip-hop culture by Black males uses the n-word as a staple. White youths, statistically the largest consumers of hip-hop, then feel that they can use the word among themselves with Black and white peers. … But then I hear in that same discussion that many of the Black youths are indeed offended by [whites using the n-word]. And if Blacks and whites are together and a white person uses the word, many Blacks are ready to fight. So this word comes laden with these complicated and contradictory emotional responses to it. It’s very confusing to folks on the “outside,” particularly when nobody has really talked about the history of the word in terms of American history, language, performance and identity."
Straight Talk About the N-Word | Learning for Justice

No, what I am saying is it's not heard of in this country. I have never heard black people use it. I can't speak for Americans.

i have. So what now?

I think it is very clear when you see to young black men using that word to each other if they do it for bantz and laughs or to insult.

In the MacDonalds example? customers bandying it around with each other? ok depending on how loud/boistrous they are. Not ok from employee to customer under any circumstances.

Just like he does every single time? A big assumption there.

Women sometimes call eachother bitch as an affectionate term. Do you also think they use it to greet their mates at work?

What's that got to do with this case?

This. Just no need to use the full word? Fully understand his reason for wanting to explore how to manage and resolve situations , he just doesn’t need to use the word itself. Zero reason to use it 🤦🏻‍♀️

Always so refreshing to hear from those who've clearly read the judgement rather than just leaping to their keyboards to fling accusations based on little but their own biases

With something as serious as racism and accusations of the same you'd think folk would want to know the facts, but sadly not in some cases

Don’t be so ridiculous. No sane person can genuinely believe it was a sackable offence. The tribunal clearly didn’t.