Pub chef refusing to cook for allergies

[Allergyissue87]

Very odd experience yesterday, my son has a nut allergy and we eat out once or twice a month. Generally we get shown an allergy folder or directed to an app to check and given a quick warning about cross contamination and all fine. I know the level of his allergy and am happy to take a small risk of cross contamination etc, otherwise he could never have a meal out.
Yesterday we went to a chain pub, have been before with no issues, asked if we had any allergies, told the woman at the till yes a nut allergy, we've checked the allergen info and happy with risk of cross of contamination etc. All fine, ordered, paid and sat down with our drinks.
Then about 20 minutes later a chef came to the table to tell us he can't cook for us as there is an allergy and our order shouldnt have been taken. I was really confused, wondered if it was a new chef etc, I explained I'd checked the allergy info on their website, it doesn't contain any allergens and I'm aware of the small possibility of cross contamination but not an issue for his level of allergy, and he's eaten it before and all fine. But no, he was adamant he cannot serve food due to this allergy, he was apparently the kitchen manager and would not risk making a child ill, couldn't explain further than that and went back to the kitchen.
I went back up to the bar and asked for the manager, a young assistant manager gave me a full refund and apologised but still couldn't give me a real explanation.

I'll most likely complain through their online form as we wasted about an hour by the time we had got our refund and left, with 2 hungry children, and my son who now doesn't want to eat anything not homemade as 'the man said I'll get ill'.
Am I being unreasonable to expect to be served?

To clarify if my son ate a nut, or something containing nuts he would be unwell and need an epipen, but has been fine with previous incidents of his food touching nut-containing food etc and there wasn't actually anything containing nuts on the pub menu.

DD is a trained chef and very knowledgeable about allergies. Her current job is a very small working kitchen. She refuses to cater for anaphylaxis allergies as she cannot be sure she can promise no cross contamination given the size of the kitchen. She used to work in a five star where they could cater but it had to be booked well in advance, on a quieter day and time and involved one of the kitchens being deep cleaned, food for allergy sufferer prepped first and a single set aside fridge and larder just for that allergy. There was a near miss incident thanks to a mistake by front of house when she was not at work It involved the food standards agency resulting in a gob smacking fine that took out the financial reserves.

If you think the health and safety executive can be scary try the food standards agency and new laws around food and allergies. If you want info on places that manage risks for allergy sufferers contact Anaphylaxis UK and book well in advance with a full declaration of allergens.

No-win situation for the chef.

I'm sure you're sick of it. It's very difficult. But this isn't true

Allergies are just another in vogue thing for parents who think its everyone else's job to take up for their little darlings.

and it's disgusting that you actually think it is.

I know it is. I just read that this was in a pub. Kids shouldn't be in pubs

If kids shouldn't be in pubs, why do so many of them have playgrounds, childrens' menus and highchairs available?

Because pushy parents insist on taking them and then bitch and whine that the pub isn't catering for their little darlings and thus happens so much that now they have no choice to because some parent cries, complains and sues.

Our grand-daughter has a very severe and life threatening allergy to egg. She is going to Uni next year, and will not be able to share accommodation for that reason. She will have to have her own studio with her own kitchen. And even on holiday, going out to a restaurant is just not possible, as even if the ingredients list say 'NO egg' there may be traces or cross-contamination. It is very life limiting for the whole family- but you do what you have to do to keep your child/beloved grandchild, SAFE. This poor girl who died after eating a sandwich from Prêt-à-manger was so tragic- but I could never ever understand how parents would have allowed her to eat from Prêt- due to in house contamination, never mind, ingredient. It's tough, very - but it is what it is. And being 18 truly DOES NOT make it easier, at all.

Another thing which puts every child at risk, is the total mix up between mild or even severe intolerance- which may be unpleasant, but never life threatening. And even worse, those who use the term 'allergy' because they do not like or wish to eat, some products. It means that many people just raise eyebrows and just don't take real anaphylactic allergies seriously.

This chef was being caring and thoughtful and you are angry with them?

My aunty is also allergic to raspberrys and Id never heard of it with anyone before!

Not necessarily a troll.

Unfortunately people don't know the difference between intolerances and allergies.

Also I've come across people in the past who have said they are allergic to a particular food just because they don't like it.

I've had to point out X over there is allergic to Y and if they eat X may have Z symptoms which may cause them to die. I'm intolerant to dairy and my symptoms will vary but they will be very unpleasant for you as you won't be able to use the one toilet for a few hours. What are your symptoms? They then admit they don't like a food.

For all the 'just don't tell them' brigade.. Wtf are you thinking?

If I were driving & my brakes failed in a way that wasn't predictable or preventable & I drove into & killed a child, do you think I'm walking away going 'ah well, nothing I could have done'? Am I fuck. I'm traumatised, probably for life! The same goes for a chef/kitchen that isn't properly informed of serious allergies. Obvs some ppl in a kitchen are slack af (& that's when you see prosecutions) but most of us legitimately do not want to kill anyone & the moment someone presents with a severe anaphylaxis level allergy it's on us NOT to cause their death.

You make it our responsibility, one which sometimes we can shoulder & other times can't. But the reality is, we could put food in front of you that might result in someone's death, right there at the table.

By all means take risks in your own kitchen but don't hide things from us so we aren't able to do the best thing by you.

My most recent customer I actually spoke to later in the evening to make sure their little one was OK (they are also friends). I knew I'd done everything I could, but it just played on my mind.

Hi there Marynotsocontrary...

Did you not read my entire post? Unfortunately, you chose to omit the vast majority of what I wrote and you quoted a very small portion of my original post. In doing so, you completely undermined the context in which I was saying the above.

Anything can be twisted around to mean the very opposite if a piece of advice or story has only the tiniest of snippets quoted.

More importantly, I was responding the the OP and the OP only. Not to you. So, if the OP reads my message, I am sure she they will understand my context and where I am coming from. Of course, they can also chose to not do anything differently in the future.

he might have had an incident in the past where cross contamination has happened this could be for any number of reasons ! maybe he was prosecuted or had a disciplinary against him! this can really effect your mental health and want to keep people safe and keep himself safe too. I understand his anxiety surrounding this. People also say they will take responsibility for themselves or their child but when it comes to the crunch they might change their mind or deny saying it! unfortunately we live in a blame society . it ie sad that your son has to be so careful and it might be that this unfortunately happens more often than you think !

I did read your entire message @DJhowzy. I wanted to make sure OP knew it was poor advice for anyone who's been prescribed an epipen. Not disclosing allergies due to embarrassment is a very bad idea. And specialists recommend avoidence rather than relying on adrenaline.

There is private messaging available if you need to contact OP privately. Otherwise this is a public forum and anyone can comment.

The problem here is that as soon as establishments start refusing to serve allergy sufferers then people will just not divulge they have allergies and will risk assess the situation themselves. I have lived with nut and fish allergies for over 50 years. Back in the 70’s my allergies were extremely rare. I still went to parties, didn’t eat out much but that was more to do with affordability. Food back then was pretty bland. My parents risk assessed what I could and couldn’t eat and obviously taught me how to assess the risks myself. Despite my allergies as I got older I did try lots of different foods and now eat lots of different cuisines and am more adventurous with food than by dh. I went out to a Thai restaurant at the weekend. I looked at the menu before hand ( which listed allergens) I picked something I knew I would be fine with. My friends ( who I have known for over 40 years) know about my allergy and they checked if I was ok with them eating the dishes they chose which included nuts and fish. My allergies are not airborne so no risk from that but obviously there was a risk of cross contamination with what I ordered in the kitchen but I risk assessed it and was fine with the risk. Some of you are suggesting that I should not be allowed to decide for myself the level of risk I am prepared to take and the op is not allowed to risk assess on behalf of her child. I would have led a very boring life if that was the case.

Akrong said - "Allergies are just another in vogue thing for parents who think its everyone else's job to take up for their little darlings"

This is not people who are a little bit intolerant to bread (probably from stupid diets that depleted their gut biome). Genuine EpiPen carrying allergies are potentially life threatening, and in quite small and distant quantities - you can't just designated part of the kitchen nut free, gluten free, soy free, dairy free etc. And you only have 10 mins after giving the one epi pen you're allowed to have before you need a second dose or you die. Think about how long it can take for an ambulance to arrive!! Having taken a severely-allergic-to-most-things child - the type that got permanent chemical burn scars from a reaction to face paints - belonging to someone else on a trip out of range of the nearest mobile mast, I understand the chef's anxiety.
There's nothing cool or trendy or desirable about a life threatening reaction to food. Why on earth would anyone pretend?

cassgate exactly.

Everything in life is a risk, but it's about sensible risk assessment. I just checked and apparently each year in the UK there are around 10 deaths due to food allergies and around 1600 deaths due to car accidents. We still go out in our cars.

I guess the issue is that the chef should not have to take on that risk themselves - once explained it should then be down to the customer (or their parent). OP is making a similar risk assessment every time she buys or cooks food for her child.

Final update as I've heard back from the company. It's a long one sorry! Had so many responses I want to give you the full version.
I didn't complain as such as query, I left out the service issue as it doesn't really matter, I just want to figure out what the issue is/was and where we can go. The area manager called me earlier and apologised and offered a gift card for another visit (politely declined). He said there was no reason we should have been refused and would be offering further training so the pub is clear on it.
He explained they have a strict allergy protocol to protect both their teams and customers. The signs, menu warnings and question from server about allergies is to ensure customers have looked at all the relevant information to decide for themselves whether they can eat or not. He said they aren't allowed to tell someone something is 'safe' and have to mention the risk of contamination. Although the product itself doesn't contain the allergen because it is produced elsewhere they can't 100% say it hasn't been contaminated. If someone says yes to an allergen the kitchen then uses fresh chopping board/utensils, opens a new pack etc to further reduce the risk. But ultimately the decision lies with the customer as to the severity of their allergy and likelihood of an issue. Many people could tolerate traces, or food having contacted an allergen, whereas other people would be seriously harmed by it.
I asked about some of the things PP have mentioned, if the chef knew something else perhaps new ingredients, nuts in the kitchen for other reasons etc, he explained they aren't allowed to swap any ingredients, nothing should enter the kitchen they don't sell (staff packed lunches etc) every kitchen in the chain should be producing exactly the same.
I got the impression it was either that the chef misunderstood the allergy training, or the kitchen wasn't controlled in the way it should have been. Either way I made it really clear I wasn't looking for him to be in trouble, I do respect taking a more cautious option if unsure.

I suppose its the answer I was wanting, that isn't any more unsafe than previously/nothing new to worry about but I will probably be ringing in advance to check in other places.

PP have made some really good points though, maybe chefs should be able to refuse, they are right a customer could get it wrong and have a reaction and chef would have to live it it, even if the company wasn't liable with all their policies etc. Final update as I've heard back from the company. I didn't complain as such as query, I left out the service issue as it doesn't really matter, I just want to figure out what the issue is/was and where we can go. The area manager called me earlier and apologised and offered a gift card for another visit (politely declined). He said there was no reason we should have been refused and would be offering further training so the pub is clear on it.
He explained they have a strict allergy protocol to protect both their teams and customers. The signs, menu warnings and question from server about allergies is to ensure customers have looked at all the relevant information to decide for themselves whether they can eat or not. He said they aren't allowed to tell someone something is 'safe' and have to mention the risk of contamination. Although the product itself doesn't contain the allergen because it is produced elsewhere they can't 100% say it hasn't been contaminated. If someone says yes to an allergen the kitchen then uses fresh chopping board/utensils, opens a new pack etc to further reduce the risk. But ultimately the decision lies with the customer as to the severity of their allergy and likelihood of an issue. Many people could tolerate traces, or food having contacted an allergen, whereas other people would be seriously harmed by it.
I asked about some of the things PP have mentioned, if the chef knew something else perhaps new ingredients, nuts in the kitchen for other reasons etc, he explained they aren't allowed to swap any ingredients, nothing should enter the kitchen they don't sell (staff packed lunches etc) every kitchen in the chain should be producing exactly the same.
I got the impression it was either that the chef misunderstood the allergy training, or the kitchen wasn't controlled in the way it should have been. Either way I made it really clear I wasn't looking for him to be in trouble, I do respect taking a more cautious option if unsure.

I suppose its the answer I was wanting, that isn't any more unsafe than previously/nothing new to worry about but I will probably be ringing in advance to check in other places.

PP have made some really good points though, maybe chefs should be able to refuse, they are right a customer could get it wrong and have a reaction and chef would have to live it it, even if the company wasn't liable with all their policies etc.

I will definitely be more appreciative of the places that do serve us and have to take all the precautions

Sounds like a very sensible response from them OP, and good of you to clarify you didn't want the chef to be in trouble but just wanted to know their policy.

Ultimately the chef is the head of the kitchen and the one assuming any risk. Their word needs to be final.

Just as a plane or ship captain might have to deviate from "company policy" if they see fit. It's their arse on the line.

I hope this particular chef doesn't suffer any repurcussions, regardless of what the corporate rep told the customer.

Restaurants aren’t willing to take the risk of being sued or put in prison for killing someone. Should have been handled better but tbh i do really feel for restaurants these days!

That sounds good OP. Hopefully your DS will be able to enjoy his pizza there again so.

Allergies are hard on everyone.

@Crafthead
And you only have 10 mins after giving the one epi pen you're allowed to have before you need a second dose or you die. Think about how long it can take for an ambulance to arrive!!

My DC is always prescribed two epipens at a time. From the information I've read, as well as what our consultant said, it's recommended you carry two. When we buy them they come in a 2 pack.