Page 30 | To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

k2493 · 2024-01-07T11:09:10+00:00

Just posting for thoughts Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids. Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship. Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention. Every hallway is a one way system. The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold. He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again. AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

Kikisweb · 10/01/2024 06:56

My DS starts in September. He has high anxiety levels which are going to be made so much worse by modern secondary schools. He has a lot of problems with executive dysfunction so homework and having equipment is going to be a nightmare for him, and the punishments are going to trigger school refusal. I think most secondary schools take petty things to extremes and are creating the current extremely high rates of teen anxiety, self harm and suicide. The current system fails more children than it helps.

RosesAndHellebores · 10/01/2024 07:10

When I were a lass I got into the grammar school. Three form entry, 90 girls a year. Other local schools were 4 form entry. A couple of schools were rougher than others with poorer results, offering only cses. Compared to posts on here they were probably akin to finishing school. The rot set in, in about 1970, and it was the one size fits all comprehensive system that started it together with the Liberal left "anything goes" mentality.

What's being described here isn't about supporting education, it's about crowd control and uncivilised cohorts who from cradle to grave have lost contact with societal norms. This has resulted in an unkind and punitive environment for all which cannot possibly support learning.

It is not helped by the focus shifting from education to qualifications. An education should always be about more than paper quals, the value of which is becoming increasingly diluted.

Dasy2k1 · 10/01/2024 08:12

The current ethos which comes directly from the DoE via ofsted is comply at all costs.
The pettier the rule the better the only purpose is to install unthinking unquestioning compliance
Petty uniform rules such as this are generally the easiest to implement and so that's what the schools focus on which is frankly ridiculous.

Especially as a sensible rule for coats would require them to be taken of at the Classroom door rather than before you even get to the halls.

And it's the same in hot weather these days. Even if multiple pupils pass out from heat stroke you are not permitted to remove blazers or ties as that would set a dangerous precedent that would make mass insubordination and mutiny inevitable

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 08:13

RosesAndHellebores · 10/01/2024 07:10

When I were a lass I got into the grammar school. Three form entry, 90 girls a year. Other local schools were 4 form entry. A couple of schools were rougher than others with poorer results, offering only cses. Compared to posts on here they were probably akin to finishing school. The rot set in, in about 1970, and it was the one size fits all comprehensive system that started it together with the Liberal left "anything goes" mentality.

What's being described here isn't about supporting education, it's about crowd control and uncivilised cohorts who from cradle to grave have lost contact with societal norms. This has resulted in an unkind and punitive environment for all which cannot possibly support learning.

It is not helped by the focus shifting from education to qualifications. An education should always be about more than paper quals, the value of which is becoming increasingly diluted.

That is the most rational post of the thread!
It isn't just 1 thing, it is a combination of many things.
You are right in saying the focus has moved away from education. Education shoukd be about broadening the mind, being inquisitive and learning for the sake of learning. What we currently have in state education are exam factories. Parents buy into this though ie looking for the school that has the highest 7-9% rather than the school that offers the broadest curriculum and a supportive learning environment.

Hollybobs1 · 10/01/2024 08:13

Personally, I'd make a serious complaint. How can they learn when they're freezing?

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 08:17

What's being described here isn't about supporting education, it's about crowd control and uncivilised cohorts who from cradle to grave have lost contact with societal norms. This has resulted in an unkind and punitive environment for all which cannot possibly support learning.

This bit about “uncivilised cohorts”: it’s the same mindset that brought you “migrants are all bad”, “this country is going to the dogs” etc. It is bedded in unspoken very right-wing assumptions about people and society as a whole - particularly people who are working class or black, and it it TOTALLY UNTRUE!

Children today are NOT less civilised than in the 1970s or even the 1870s. Overall, we live in a safer and less violent society now than in the past. Over the years it had been demonstrated that treating children with civility, compassion and love results in better behaved, happier children who are more able to learn effectively.

The “unkind and punitive environment” you so rightly identify has been created by the academy leaders who spout this mad right-wing ideology - Kathryn Birbalsingh et al. It is the schools who have created this culture, it wasn’t there in society first - certainly not in most parts of the country.

The head of “school improvement” at my son’s school was formerly a senior member of staff at the Michaela school. Maybe the Michaela approach can work in a (very)small London school where there is huge choice in which school children can attend, and where maybe there are problems with gangs and knives. Maybe.

All I can say is that it is a total disaster when applied to schools in the rural westcountry, where a single school serves the entire population including all the kids with additional needs. And where society as a whole is broadly friendly, pleasant and kind. It’s like some bizarre Nazi experiment has taken over our schools in order to brutalise an entire generation and destroy our (currently kind and friendly) local culture.

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 08:27

@dontbenastyhaveapasty I get your point but you aren't acknowledging that pupil behaviour in SOME schools has declined significantly and this is irrespective of race etc. NDN is HoY and has been threatened with a knife twice this term in a "MC" rural area. There is generally a larger % of pupils who have zero respect for teachers or theIr own learning that isn't down to SEN.
Add to that a significant minority of parents for whom education didn't work so therefore they don't engage with their children's education.
Then combine with schools that have a much larger cohort than they were built for so everyone is cramped in together, lack of staff and resources etc and you have a perfect storm.

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 08:37

Pollythenurse · 10/01/2024 02:26

.....and your tone smacks of entitlement.

Was this a reply to my post?

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 08:45

whotospeakto · 10/01/2024 06:09

I see some of the points raised but as a teacher in a pretty rough school where there is no discipline from senior management, we need a bit of this.

If this is the same building where the numbers have doubled then the school probably isn't designed to show that many pupils. One way systems are a pain but not something to get worked up over if it's for safety reasons. The lines in the corridor were put into my school in return from Covid and maybe in some schools it's been beneficial.

As for the uniform, I am 100% for this. Some of our pupils don't comply with this and nothing is done. Last year we had very serious problems with intruders coming into school and they were not easily identified due to the number of out pupils in hoodies and joggers. Some of these kids came in for a laugh and wandered around, some came in to attack some of our pupils for outside issues - gang mentality. Again, uniforms aren't the best, but if it keeps your child safe then there's a bigger picture. If they are doing uniform checks at the door, it could actually be something like this but they don't want come out and say it. There are a number of staff in my school who are concerned that someone will get stabbed in our school before things change and that's terrifying. I've had kids in my class who have obviously taken something during their break and you're concerned over what their behaviour is going to be like.

The jacket thing is annoying and common sense should be used. My classroom is terribly cold, I let my kids keep them on if it's too cold, and when smt come in and moan at them I tell them it was me who let them keep it on due to how cold it is. I've been in the same school for over 15 years and I used to think they were ott with jackets off as soon as you came in the door but that standard was let slip and that was the start.

Yes, I work in a god awful school, why do I not leave? We have some amazing kids who need teachers who are on their side and will do what they can for them despite the fact they're in a terrible school.

As a pupil I'd be fed up and would be rolling my eyes at the rules, as a parent I'd maybe still feel a little like that but would tell my son he just needs to get on with it.

I think it’s sad that you only call some of the kids at your school ‘amazing’ and they seem to be the ones who are potentially going places 🤔.

All kids are amazing - teachers and schools need to treat them all as if they are amazing and perhaps then, the school dynamic will change.

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 08:46

@twistyizzy i might agree with you if primary schools in an area were having the same problems. But they aren’t.

Parents engage just fine with primary schools, and children love going to school. Behaviour is good. The approach is child-centred, there is space and time in the school day for play. Lunches are eaten at a table, in a normal civilised environment. Children are listened to and feel valued as individuals.

The same children then start secondary school. From day 1 they are subjected to a punitive, cold, authoritarian environment. They are not listened to - in fact, they are punished if they speak. They are punished if they do not sit up straight enough at their desks. They do not have space, time in the school day, or any equipment for play. There is minimal art or creativity of any kind in the curriculum. There is nowhere to sit and eat lunch. Not only that, they are made to chant slogans at the start of every school day about the school’s rules and regulations. It is dehumanising to an extreme extent.

Is this really a proportionate or rational response to behaviour in some (other) schools being bad? Or would it be more sensible to deal with the problem of knife crime as a problem in society rather than brutalise every child in the country?

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 08:53

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 08:46

@twistyizzy i might agree with you if primary schools in an area were having the same problems. But they aren’t.

Parents engage just fine with primary schools, and children love going to school. Behaviour is good. The approach is child-centred, there is space and time in the school day for play. Lunches are eaten at a table, in a normal civilised environment. Children are listened to and feel valued as individuals.

The same children then start secondary school. From day 1 they are subjected to a punitive, cold, authoritarian environment. They are not listened to - in fact, they are punished if they speak. They are punished if they do not sit up straight enough at their desks. They do not have space, time in the school day, or any equipment for play. There is minimal art or creativity of any kind in the curriculum. There is nowhere to sit and eat lunch. Not only that, they are made to chant slogans at the start of every school day about the school’s rules and regulations. It is dehumanising to an extreme extent.

Is this really a proportionate or rational response to behaviour in some (other) schools being bad? Or would it be more sensible to deal with the problem of knife crime as a problem in society rather than brutalise every child in the country?

Of course we should deal with knife crime but that isn't up to the school to do, all they can do is mitigate it and the safety of the other kids and staff.
There are issues at primary but generally schools are smaller, teachers and parents have face to face relationship and there is less issues with mobile phones etc.
There was a massive change in personality in some of the kids DD went to primary with once they started secondary school ie the change in language and attitude was almost immediate. She doesnt go to school with the but sews them at the bus stop every morning and was on the Yr 6 Leavers group chat. She left the group after 4 weeks of Yr 7 because the language and bullying was horrendous. These kids 2 months earlier had been friends at primary. So there CAN be a change from primary to secondary.

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 08:57

@twistyizzy but those are normal changes for that age group. If secondary continued to normalise the eating together, staff chatting to parents, time for arts & creativity type ethos, perhaps the majority of children would continue to progress into of having deteriorating behaviour once shocked into it by the academy regime!

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 09:06

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 08:57

@twistyizzy but those are normal changes for that age group. If secondary continued to normalise the eating together, staff chatting to parents, time for arts & creativity type ethos, perhaps the majority of children would continue to progress into of having deteriorating behaviour once shocked into it by the academy regime!

Teachers don't have time though. They don't have 1 x class of 30 kids like in primary, they have lots of classes of 30 so that's impossible.
The National Curriculum doesn't allow for arts and creativity and Ofsted doesn't judge on this.
How can 1500 kids eat together in a canteen built for 500 kids?
You have completely unrealistic expectations of what a school can reasonably do.
Add to that 3 x secondary schools in the near area are closed to RAAC and kids are being taught across different random portakabins across other different schools in the county so there isn't even a physical school 🙄.

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 09:06

*instead of having deteriorating behaviour …

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 09:09

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 03:30

That's nonsense.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a parent whose DCs went to a public high school in the US, a school with a very mixed student intake - a student body of 3,500+ from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds, income levels, cultural backgrounds, parents with wildly varying levels of aspiration and ambition and different experiences of school and school systems.

There were kids heading for Harvard and kids who wanted to be mechanics or hairdressers and all points in between. Many of the students were TESL students, from homes where Spanish or Polish or (lately) Ukrainian were the first languages. There were students whose ancestors came from the rural South whose experiences of segregation had an effect on how they viewed schools.

There were no uniforms, just a dress code.

There were lockers for every student, assigned on the first day of freshman year and kept for all four years, and PE lockers where students could keep their school issued PE shorts and Tshirts and leave their day clothes and bags while doing PE.

There was a five minute passing period between classes. Students could talk and use whatever side of the hallways they wished to use, getting around a building that is a city block long (1/8 of a mile) and four floors high.

Students could get a hall pass to use the bathroom during class. Hall passes were tracked.

Students were placed in academic tracks based on placement exams and performance in classes. They did not advance year by year with kids their age.

The library was specifically remodeled as a place where students could hang out, supervised.

Minor infractions of rules did not result in detentions or exclusions. A buildup of minor infractions resulted in a referral to a dean of discipline and a discussion of issues behind the behaviour, and problem solving. The school did not expel students and did not use detention as a constant response to chronic problems.

The school employed security guards to keep order in the hallways, cafeterias, and surrounds and to double as crossing guards/ direct traffic.

SEN were diagnosed and IEPs developed by SEN staff employed by the school. The school had a Special Ed section, plus a nursery for the babies and small children of staff and students, and farmed out kids who couldn't function in the mainstream school environment because of emotional or MH needs to specific alternative educational providers, with each student fully funded by the school, including school bus transport.

The school served breakfast and lunch in the cafeterias, with FSM students able to get a hearty meal at no cost twice a day, and reduced cost food available to hundreds more. During the covid shutdown the school distributed iPads and chrome books to all students and had free meals available for pickup to all registered for free school meals plus any other students whose families needed a weekly package of dry/ tinned pantry items - noodles, pasta, jars of sauce, dried fruit, instant porridge, etc.

Yes, all of that (and there was much, much more) costs money. If you think operating what amounts to a stressful boot camp masquerading as a school will accomplish what money and evidence-based approaches to discipline do, you need to examine what it is in your assumptions about your fellow Britons that makes you think that way.

Show quote history

Shame about the mass shootings though.

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 09:10

Exactly @twistyizzy - hence why I’ve said previously upthread about the needed changes by government/academies to create new, modern school systems. Obviously as you explain, schools who are on strained by size/increasing number of pupils/old buildings etc need more than just a quick change.

Someone else mentioned moving back to having more schools but smaller or splitting large schools into their own smaller schools etc. Something is definitely needed - many of the Uk schools are no longer fit for purpose, and I don’t just mean the buildings.

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 09:13

@Verbena17 yes something is needed but no political party will be addressing it. Don't rely on Labour to do anything.
Also don't bash any parents who chose to opt out of this shitty system and go private or home school.

Araminta1003 · 10/01/2024 09:29

https://www.libdems.org.uk/news/article/investing-in-our-childrens-future

The Lib Dems want to do stuff, but it seems to be widely acknowledged that they cannot win. However, if you vote for them and they have more seats, there may be some hope for Education.

Araminta1003 · 10/01/2024 09:31

One of the things they need to do is bring in the architects as well and come up with buildings that are child friendly and happy places. Just like they used to do with council housing and light etc.

The burden cannot all be on schools. It is the NHS failing children that is even more to blame. Most of these children would also be happier if we had more youth clubs and safe spaces like that and mentors. It cannot just all be put on teachers/leaders in education.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 10/01/2024 09:32

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 09:10

Exactly @twistyizzy - hence why I’ve said previously upthread about the needed changes by government/academies to create new, modern school systems. Obviously as you explain, schools who are on strained by size/increasing number of pupils/old buildings etc need more than just a quick change.

Someone else mentioned moving back to having more schools but smaller or splitting large schools into their own smaller schools etc. Something is definitely needed - many of the Uk schools are no longer fit for purpose, and I don’t just mean the buildings.

My children’s school is over ten miles away. The local one was closed to save costs. The school has a massive catchment as a result and is huge.
it wasn’t built for that. It’s also an extra jump from the small local primary, to early starts, commuting, no. Local friends and only able to do clubs if your parents can pick you up (no public transport)

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 09:33

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 09:13

@Verbena17 yes something is needed but no political party will be addressing it. Don't rely on Labour to do anything.
Also don't bash any parents who chose to opt out of this shitty system and go private or home school.

Eh? I’m not bashing anyone…..I AM a parent who took their child off the mainstream register, got him an EHCP and got him the last place at a special school.

Araminta1003 · 10/01/2024 09:34

@dontbenastyhaveapasty ·”The “unkind and punitive environment” you so rightly identify has been created by the academy leaders who spout this mad right-wing ideology - Kathryn Birbalsingh et al. It is the schools who have created this culture, it wasn’t there in society first - certainly not in most parts of the country.

The head of “school improvement” at my son’s school was formerly a senior member of staff at the Michaela school. Maybe the Michaela approach can work in a (very)small London school where there is huge choice in which school children can attend, and where maybe there are problems with gangs and knives. Maybe.

All I can say is that it is a total disaster when applied to schools in the rural westcountry, where a single school serves the entire population including all the kids with additional needs. And where society as a whole is broadly friendly, pleasant and kind. It’s like some bizarre Nazi experiment has taken over our schools in order to brutalise an entire generation and destroy our (currently kind and friendly) local culture.”

I agree with you. However, as a Londoner we are also sick and tired of having to pay for the rest of the “kind” country. Pushing ourselves and our kids in an over competitive way because parts of the rest of the country are financially unproductive. It is a toxic model for all.

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 09:37

How can 1500 kids eat together in a canteen built for 500 kids?
You have completely unrealistic expectations of what a school can reasonably do.

I hear you that the schools have problems. But, they have lost sight of their responsibility to the well-being of the children in their care.

in the above example: if there are 1500 children who need to eat in a space that fits just 500, I would organise sittings - just exactly like many primary schools do. Not throw up my hand and say, “ oh well, the 1500 children in my care will just have to take their chances as to whether they get a meal or not. It’s not my problem if they don’t eat.”

Comedycook · 10/01/2024 09:39

I have two DC in two different secondary schools. Both take packed lunch because the queues for food are just ridiculous

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 09:44

One of my GC goes to a school where if they get a certain number of merit points their reward is that the following week they go to the front of the queue in the canteen. It seemed bizarre to me but he loves it.