To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

[k2493]

Just posting for thoughts

Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids.

Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship.

Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention.

Every hallway is a one way system.

The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold.

He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again.

AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

Telling off your children doesn't have to involve shouting or talking disrespectfully, imo. Maybe that's where you're going wrong?

100%. There isn't enough money in the world that would entice me to be a teacher even though I have my PGCE and am QTLS.

Surely there can be no excuse whatsoever, for a child bringing a knife into school.

Thinking about why a teen needs to carry a knife is not much help when it’s brandished in your face, or the face of another teen.

The consequences of threatening violence are that the parents refuse to believe it happened and blame the school and the staff. I don’t imagine there are many teachers who haven’t had to deal with being sworn at/ slapped/ threatened/ punched/ kicked or simply shouted at/ ignored.

The uniform thing is interesting...my ds is finishing school this year and is looking at sixth forms. He absolutely hates wearing school uniform and so many sixth forms insist on a blazer, tie, suit etc. He literally cannot bear the thought of another two years of wearing uniform so it's limiting his choices. The age old argument was it gets them ready for the world of work...but casual wear is now the norm in most offices. Why should a 16 year old head off to school in a suit every day whilst his dad is working from home in jeans. It's such an outdated concept.

I didn't shout but I will not tolerate being sworn at by my dc. I am absolutely within my rights to challenge that behaviour and tell him that it's unacceptable...but this is what I mean, even ordinary, non abusive telling off is seen as unacceptable nowadays.

Read my previous post about coats/hoodies being used as a way of asserting dominance in a school environment. Would you try and rationalise with a teenager who is wearing a Stone Island jacket with the hood up? 100 times a day and all of their friends who follow suit? Or would you remove that barrier straight away by enforcing a no coat rule. You’re thinking about it from the perspective of a rational adult who uses a coat when cold. Or from the perspective of one child who may be sensible. You are not thinking about a school that has to control 1500 students with 100 staff. It honestly seems petty until you’re up against a 6 ft teenage boy with their zip up and hood up towering over you. It’s used as an intimidation tactic.

I went to a Grammar school and it was nothing like that. It was like my Dd's school now, tbh. We had rules but sensible ones. We could take our blazers, jumpers off when we wanted. Could go to the toilet when we wanted. Schools like my DD's are the ones performing really well academically. It is the bad schools with all these over the top strict rules, ime.

Parents don’t have to send their children to school. They can choose to home educate and set their own rules.

Might be a win win for everyone ….

Yes, there was a thing in the 90`s in Glasgow, when it still had a very bad reputation for violence, where a company was selling kitchen/chef type knives door to door and running a TV ad campaign at the same time, I think they were an American or Canadian company trying to get a foothold in UK/Europe and the knives were relatively expensive chef level things, this is pre-internet and the ad campaign plus the sales people turning up on doorsteps was quite attention grabbing for the time, Glasgow city council tried to ban them from doing their door to door pitches in Glasgow and I remember the CEO or whatever, who sounded American, being interviewed on local TV saying "any kid who wants a knife can already get one from the kitchen drawer". It is the intent to kill or harm and/or the feeling of need for protection that is the problem, not the fact that you can get a knife from anywhere

Congratulations on your spectacularly dense comment. Really, well done 🏅

Perhaps we need to wonder why we force 6ft adult size people who are full of energy and hormones into an environment they really have no desire to be in.
Put the school leaving age back to 14 and let them do physical jobs that use up their energy.
(semi sarcastic but I often wonder this.....)

Personally I don't object to the rules. What I object to is leaping straight to detention for a first offence.

Most things that sound petty on an individual basis make sense if you say 'what if everyone did it?' So having the right equipment etc should be a rule but forgetting a ruler shouldn't result in detention.

There are kids at DD school getting detention for forgetting a ruler that was only needed for underlining the title.

At this point I'm saying to my DD that detentions don't mean anything and not to worry if she gets one, because it's meaningless. Even the teachers are saying that now, which is just making school look stupid.

I agree. Expecting teenagers to sit in silence and be still for the best part of six hours is horrific really

And then they wonder why there's an attendance crisis.

I cannot get my head around some school rules these days. Especially ones like you can't remove your blazer until slt say so. Utterly pointless and ridiculous and I would not support it and I couldn't care less if that makes school think I'm an unsupportive parent. Don't have stupid rules and maybe you won't have children and parents making a fuss about them?

Not recently, as my post made clear - hence my question.

That would be fine. You could simply choose to send your child elsewhere where they don’t have those rules. The problem is parents send their children knowing the rules and then challenge every single one of them when they are applied to their child.

Honestly the privilege in this thread is unreal.

Lots of PPs don't realise a lot of schools have to enforce conformity to get by.

Teachers don't need to be dealing with dramas over impoverished children whose £800 coat got damaged/stolen/lost etc. as a PP has said, so much is communicated by children at the edges of uniform policy... poverty, dominance, non-conformity etc.

In a state school where the all-staff :pupil ratio is 1:15 this sort of stuff is necessary to get through the day.

The current year 9 is a massive birth year where we are.

I have very little sympathy for little Jonny feeling chilly for a few minutes while he waits to get in the building. I'm more interested that the vast majority of children can learn in a safe environment where there are clear boundaries and where staff can focus on teaching and learning rather than crowd control.

Many parents are simply not capable of home educating their children, being only half educated themselves.

How is a parent who doesn't know the difference between 'there, their and they're ' or the difference between 'its and it's' supposed to teach their children?

How many parents understand physics, chemistry and biology? How many can teach French, Spanish or German?

Effective home education demands skill, time and money, and these are often beyond most parents.

@CrashyTime I only have several sharp knives in my kitchen and would notice if one was missing. How can parents not notice?

One way system is standard

@Comedycook I remember reading a history book about when the school leaving age was being raised to 12 and there was a kind of cross over time where the the leaving age was 12 OR if the children had completed Standard 5 (modern Year 7). Apparently a lot of boys (especially those who would be working on the land) would work extra hard at school to be able to jump ahead and leave at age 11 or even 10 as they would have finished the Standard 5 work.
Now some of that would have been parental pressure (either needing them working on the land or so they could go and earn a wage) but they would have had to work hard to achieve that and it was an incentive.
Obviously we don't want to go back to the leaving school age being that low but I do often think if teens have reached a certain academic level of education they could be able to leave early (ie 14 or 15) and get an apprenticeship or job.

Well, I keep my hood up a lot in shops for example, because I dont think being filmed from multiple angles is appropriate unless you are an actor and have consented to be filmed by being in a movie. One shopkeeper asked me to remove my hood to "protect the neighbours", I asked how this would protect the neighbours, and when he couldnt answer that then left the items on the counter and went elsewhere. If his neighbours are threatened by anti-social behaviour or he has shoplifters coming in that is a job for the police or his private security staff which he will need to pay for. Some teens are genuinely anxious, some teens are making a little statement, some are genuinely aggressive and anti-authority, some might actually be cold LOL, teachers etc. need to concentrate on delivering good lessons instead of little power trips with cameras and "lines", if there is a problem with weapons being brought into class employ some ex-army/police person to do searches before people enter the class and then let them do WTF they want with their hoods IMO. If the lesson is engaging they will engage.

The schools are being blamed here, for things outside their control. They have no budgets now for alternative curriculums. Niche subjects are under threat. Class sizes are getting larger - particularly at A Level. And there are far fewer admin staff, putting everyone under pressure. This is all down to govt policy.

Rules are having to be stricter. A tiny minority are causing mayhem and meaning that the good stuff (things that often rely on good behaviour / relationships) can’t happen. And if parents blame the school - for rules they undoubtedly wish they didn’t have to have, then it’s missing the point.

school staff give literal blood, sweat and tears. They really care. The issues are bigger than they control and are a reflection of our society. And it doesn’t have to be this way.

personally I hate that so many good kids are sitting in lessons with one or two individuals intent on not participating and preventing anyone else from learning - which is what ofsted measures schools on.

but maybe I’m just tired and grumpy ahead of another week of this.

I cannot get my head around some school rules these days. Especially ones like you can't remove your blazer until slt say so

That's not a new one for me my 90s state secondary had that one - with first head often meant a student fainting before blazers were allowed off.

It just was a thing you accepted - you were also supposed to stand up when a adult entered the room but that was often not enforced. Did have good results and good atmosphere but did use uniform as a way of advertising it was strict and big on discipline.

I think since then focusing on uniform has became a thing failing schools do and is now a red flag to many parents.

We choose a nurturing school and it's changed under us to a failing one focused on trivia like uniform.

It's like attendance - very poor at minute - but kids like mine who are in if well are struggling to stay in classrooms let alone learn as environment is so noisy and undisciplined - but they aren't bothered by this. It's not about supporting the child to learn but having a check box ticked to say there were on site.

No I can't actually @Whyyoulyingfor as my child has an EHCP and must attend the school named in their plan. I can assure you there's very little to no choice about which school your child attends when they have SEN and requires specialist provision.