Children don’t need car seats?

[IcarusFlies]

Am I completely misunderstanding this? We have DC3 on the way and I’m trying to find a way to have three car seats in the back.

One will be 4.5yo, the other 6.5yo when baby comes. DC1 is over 22kg but under 125cm so, I thought, needs a high backed booster or a booster cushion from before 2017 / after growing to 125cm.

But the Gov website is saying “Children aged 3 or older can sit in the back using an adult belt, if there’s no space for a third seat”?? So I don’t need a third car seat at all, if the whole family of five travels together?

https://www.gov.uk/child-car-seats-the-rules/when-a-child-can-travel-without-a-car-seat

NOT debating the safety or wisdom of this, just trying to get my head around the regulations… Surely this can’t be right?

We have 3 under 4 so need 3 5 point seat belts and the adult goes in the middle. Baby in front as I've got isofix so her spin seat is there. Adult in the middle seems the best for you too?

If your seating proves less than ideal you should think of cutting down your car journeys. You can get shopping delivered and your family can come to you. Cut out the motorway completely.
We are GPs with a fairly wide car. We can only fit 2 car seats in the back. Me and the grandchildren’s Mum took turns to sit sideways in the back once on a 2 hour journey. Me size 10 and Mum size 8.

I found it really surprising when we had 3 kids how few cars actually have a full size seat in the middle of the back. It’s really limiting, and I think the official rules are a reflection of that. My eldest was 7.5 when my youngest was born, and we had to go with a booster cushion in the middle, on the basis he had side protection from the other seats, and the cushion raised him to put the seatbelt in a better position. I’m not saying it was ideal, and it was also 8 years ago before booster cushion rules changed. Even doing that, a lot of booster cushions were too wide to fit.

Given the number of families I know with 3+ children, I wonder why manufacturers don’t offer more car models that can accommodate them. Seatbelt fitted seats may be a bit easier to accommodate than Isofix, but I appreciate too that isofix may be the safer option.

but I appreciate too that isofix may be the safer option.

Isofix isn't safer as such, it significantly reduces the risk of the seat being fitted incorrectly, which is what increases the safety.

If you don't want to change your car or choose which child you like least (joking) then you can get a 3 seater child seat that replaces the whole back seat with child seats. We have one and whilst I hate the seat belts with a passion - it does allow us to go anywhere as a family of 5. It's not cheap - £1k plus but relative to a new car it's cheap and has a good resale price. It's a multimac. No adults in the back.seat but fine until kids are older and we only require one seat or booster.
For what it's worth - I did travel with oldest squeezed between two car seats and she was so squashed in I doubt it was an issue! But that was a short journey- like you I'd not like to do that for most journeys.

We have a medium sized hatchback and put 2 car seats in the back with an adult in the middle and the baby in the front.

I think it’s more comfortable if at least one is rear facing so you might want to put your 4yo in an ERF seat until your eldest can go in the middle.

Citroen C5 Aircross does. I chose it because I have 3 teens with sensory difficulties. The seats are individual and move back and forth with a 15cm range.

I think this is probably the government's way of acknowledging that not all cars fit 3 car seats and so they can't very well enforce fines etc. It contradicts their other rules that children must be in a high backed booster until 12 or 135cm. Although that was also caveats when introduced that you could carry on using a seat only booster if you already have that.

Dd is an only so not sure if this is useful but she was a tall child so outgrew car seats very quickly. By 5 she was on a booster cushion. More so because most of her height was in her body and not legs. We couldn't physically wedge her shoulders in a high back booster at full extension. As a result she fit perfectly on a booster cushion with the seat belt correctly over her shoulder. Therefore completely safe and secure.
Is your dc long in body or leg?

Not true, it depends on the car. Children have been killed by airbags

If it fits you could put a booster cushion with a belt guide in the middle. If the other two are in rear facing belt fitted seats it should fit. Sounds like your 4 year old is in a Joie bold which won't be helping as it's isofix if using with harness and quite wide. So get a belt fitted infant carrier with no base and an erf seat for the 4 year old to begin with, put the older in the middle. In the middle it's safer so the lack of side impact protection although not ideal isn't as much of a worry as on an outer seat. Once the baby is bigger, that can go in the middle rear facing either in carrier or erf seat and other two can go on outer seats.

If putting one in the front the safest option is a rear facing seat with airbag off. Not a child in a forward facing seat.

If choosing between no booster and booster for the oldest child, I wouldn't worry about the illegality of the booster. I would choose the safest option. You won't get done for it as it's a technicality.

Most of not all group 0-3 seats you can only use the harness to 18 kg and then it's seat belt only.

Probably because they haven't put the seat far enough back or checked the compatibility in the manual. This is the advice from ROSPA and the AA.

https://www.childcarseats.org.uk/choosing-using/faqs/#:~:text=If%20you%20must%20put%20a,the%20child%20and%20the%20airbag.

https://www.theaa.com/driving-advice/safety/child-safety/car-seats#:~:text=It's%20OK%20to%20leave%20the,size%20and%20performance%20does%20vary.

We found it easier to put a child in carseat in front and me and my mum in the back together rather than squeezing between the seats.

Hbb is from 15 kg legal minimum, or 18 kg and age 4.5 advised minimum

Yes, as I said, it depends on the car. The advice you have linked specifically says to avoid putting children in forward facing car seats in a seat with an airbag!

You won't be able to put the seat right back if there's a rear facing child behind. And a forward facing child seat behind also needs a 55 cm gap so it isn't going to be possible to safely put a forward facing car seat in the front with airbag on for op.

55cm gap?! This topic is the gift that keeps on giving!

a Group 0-3 one that goes through to 12 yo

These are generally pretty massive so might be worth looking at changing this. Single stages tend to be better for slimness. If your DC is 20kg though I'm guessing it's either Joie Bold or Cozy n Safe something. Do you def need the harness? Most children at 4.5yo are OK without.

The 55cm gap is a thing, but it's not 55cm in front of the seat. It's measured from right back at the back of the seat and considering the seat depth is about 50-53cm in many cars, it's really not as massive a gap as people go on about. The Octavia isn't miniscule so you'll be fine putting one child in the front and one in the back if that's the solution you go for. These limits are just part of the legal standard - basically when they crash test the seat, the dummy's head isn't allowed to come past the 55cm mark. Actually r129 seats are stricter and it's only 50cm. It's not really a limit that consumers are supposed to be aware of or use to make decisions. Useful info if you are wondering whether there is enough space, perhaps, but since real life crashes don't happen to laboratory conditions, not to be taken as a hard limit.

I went from 1 DC to 3 (twins) and invested in a bigger car. I'd never put them in with no car seat or even just a booster. If you Google crash test dummy with car seats you'll see why high backed seats are an absolute necessity

Finding a car to comfortably fit three in the back is a bit of a nightmare OP. A lot of cars it's just not possible. Since having our 3rd we've stuck with Citroëns because they have three full seats in the back so you don't have to choose a least favourite child to squish in the middle. Also, although they may initially take up less space when they outgrow the child seat, they have a nasty habit of growing bigger. Then they need more space again.

If you can’t fit a 3rd seat in the back you can’t fit it though? It’s then safer to be belted than no belt at all. I don’t think it’s legislation aimed towards parents who can plan to change seats or cars. A child on a booster cushion doesn’t sound safe either given their heat will be next to the hard shell of the car seats and side impacts are common (perhaps more common in the lower speed journeys through town that you’re considering using it for?). Honestly I’d either change the car or change the seats. Failing that adult goes in the back. Tbh probably easiest to change the car given that your children should all be in car seats a fair bit longer

I need to check exactly what the car seat and situation is for the middle child currently, and whether he needs to now go without the harness - will check that tomorrow.

The Facebook group has multiple examples of people fitting three seats in the back of a Skoda Octavia?! So maybe I just need to get a bit more creative and give it a go… I put the Pebble between the other two (still strapped in) as a rough test and it was a joke, couldn’t get even close, so I assumed that was that. Maybe there are some options!

To be honest, if this is only going to be an issue for 6 months, for motorway journeys that you only do every 3 weeks (so 8 occasions?) I would just hire a big 7 seater for those journeys, wouldn’t that be more affordable than replacing your car?

They need a car seat or booster until 12 or 135cm (not 125cm)

We had a third last year and had to upgrade our car. It's not the sexiest car we've ever had but the Peugeot 5008 is great as fits 3 car seats and has a great size boot (with 2 extra seats that fold down).