What to do with my mother

[HelloDeidre]

My mother has been very difficult for many years but now she is over 80 she is very unreasonable. The issue is we bought a house together many years ago. I put up the mortgage and she the cash ..almost half and half. the house is solely in my name. The mortgage was paid off in 5 years through renting the property. For 20 years after this she let the property and kept the rent . I had nothing to do with the property . Reckoned I would get it one day when she passed on . In the 20 odd years she has gained about 3 times the original value of the property in rent, Anyway she is now of an age that she cant really mange the property and it is about 30 miles from her house and my brother does not want her driving to the property and is blaming me that she is doing so. His first reaction is to shout and roar and blame others . But the thing is I live very far away in another country. I have offered to give the property to an estate agent to mange and for her to have the profits after expenses are taken out. I have offered to give the property to the council for a 5 year let and for her to keep the money on this. I work and cannot afford to retire. I cannot do the property up as I haven't the money and she has it all in the bank. If I sell the property there is very high capital gains tax to pay and when she insists on having her share I will get very very little. Though I am not sure she wants to sell, She wont pay for cleaners in the property or handymen or anything..She is very mean and wants people to do it for nothing. The thing is my brother who cant deal with her and his wife are saying I need to go there and help her let the property but I get none of the money and have no say in any of it and I have a full time job. . She even said if the property is done up I have to pay for it . She has thousands and thousands in the bank. She could get a free bus to very near the property and get a taxi for about £8 the last bit if she wants to visit it but wont do that even as wont pay for taxi . But she doesnt need to visit the property if given to estate agents or council. So she just turn up at my brothers house saying how she is worn out from cleaning and how no one is helping her. And he in turn rings me up fighting about her driving there and cleaning and how its all my responsibility to sort. I asked her if I could manage it and I wont say what she called me when I said I could take it over. . I really dont have the time to take off work, fly there and do the letting when I have no say or money from it. I dont know what to do but if I take it off of her she will have a stroke. I am so stressed by it all. Other siblings staying clear. What would you do ???

Are you both equal legal owners then? If you are can I ask why you have been letting her keep all of the rent from it? Sounds mad to be letting yourself dip out on your share if so.

If you are equal owners I'd insist on receiving half the rent.

Sorry I can't actually offer help on the actual situation but for what it's worth I think your suggestion of letting an estate agent manage the property sounds the best solution

Give it to the council on loan for 5 years?
What's this?

I voted YABU as you are batshit for allowing this situation to develop.

If the house is solely in your name then you could just sell it.

It sounds as though your Mum is getting very elderly and not coping any more. You need to just say a very firm "no" to her and your sibling and sell the house I think.

The will probably get angry but if you are in another country, then there is a limit to how far they can shout.

I agree with other posters. If the house is solely in your name, just sell it. You'll get whatever profit comes out of it (she won't legally be entitled to any of the profit). Especially if you can show your mother has gotten her original investment back, there is no way they can come back on you. Mom will be upset but clearly she can't keep up with the house and you aren't physically there to help. You might not make much money but you'll be able to wash your hands of the stress of it.

The house is solely in your name, therefore you sell it and keep the money. Your mother has had her share via the rent

I agree with other posters suggesting that you sell the property. Is it currently tenanted? If not, assuming that as you're living abroad you don't have keys for it, then I would suggest that you contact a locksmith, send a copy of the paperwork proving your ownership, and ask them to change the locks. At the same time, contact an estate agent, tell them that you would like to sell the property, and would appreciate a valuation. Ideally you would normally get three valuations done to ensure getting an average price, so that you can gauge how much you want to ask for it, but under these circumstances it may be easier just to go with one that has the best reputation in the area. Ask the locksmith to drop the keys with your chosen agent, so that they can have access to do the valuation. Personally, I wouldn't tell your DM what you're doing until it's a done deal, as otherwise she's likely to cause difficulties by the sound of things. Then when you do tell her, she will have no choice in the matter, if she allows you to explain at all, then tell her that your brother has been going on at you because he is worried that she can no longer cope with the responsibility, and it's now time to let go. She's had all of the income from it up until now, so it would seem that it's time for you to reap your share of the profits from your joint investment. It's natural that you would worry about her having a stroke if you do this at her age, but I would say it is unlikely unless she has a history that you haven't told us about, but it seems that other than cutting contact with both of them, in order to avoid the blame game that your brother is playing and the general stress of it all, you have no other choice.

It’s a scheme many councils have where they rent your property from you to increase their social housing offering. Strict criteria.

More than her share, the rent should have been split 50/50 and once sold any capital gains tax should be paid and the balance split 50/50, if not more in the OP's favour as she has had no benefit from the rent.

So your mum put in 50% cash.
You actually put in nothing: your 50% “payment” was simply to be the lendable mortgagee. You didn’t even have to pay the mortgage as the rent covered it.

Your mother put in 50% upfront + another 25% when her half share of the rental income paid off the mortgage.

So she made the purchase possible and paid for 75% of it. But it’s ALL in your name.

And she’s managed the rental and property for 25 years.

I think you should quit grumbling about her taking the rental income, given that you clearly agreed to that 25 ish years ago, and have ended up owning an entire house having not put in a single penny that’s the result of your own money or effort.

I'd be concerned about your potential liability as the owner, and hers, if she's the landlord on the paperwork, if she's refusing to do maintenance and skimping like that.

Is she complying with all the legal obligations she should be? Gas and electric inspections etc? EPC? Deposit protected?

I'd get a managing agent in sharpish for that reason alone.

The only option is to sell it. Your mother is not managing it appropriately, you already know that. You are likely in breach of the law. Just sell it and be done with it. It is obviously coming to a head anyway. Your brother must be absolutely furious with you, I would be in his shoes. What a nightmare.

It doesn't actually sound like it's anything to do with your mum or anyone else legally.

Get advice on the capital gains tax. It might not be as much as you think.

Otherwise you definitely need to stop thinking an 80 year old can do all the upkeep and letting. Get an zgent to sort it.

It

Firstly thanks everyone who answered constructively

As for -
upwardsonwards "Your brother must be absolutely furious with you, I would be in his shoes. What a nightmare."

I have done nothing but help my mother get a house and an income over 20 years ..She has made about £120 k income ...3 times her investment My brother hasnt lifted a finger to help her financially, Nor as I said am i insisting she continue as I want her to stop and me to take over but she wont pay an agency fee. I am not complaining about rent as I said she could keep the rent if it goes to an estate agency or council

madroid "Otherwise you definitely need to stop thinking an 80 year old can do all the upkeep and letting" I clearly said I wnat it to go to an agent or council or sell but she called me a cunt when I suggest ed this ..Easy to blame me when I am dealing with the most mean person ever

Testina"So your mum put in 50% cash.
You actually put in nothing: your 50% “payment” was simply to be the lendable mortgagee. You didn’t even have to pay the mortgage as the rent covered it.

Your mother put in 50% upfront + another 25% when her half share of the rental income paid off the mortgage.

So she made the purchase possibleandpaid for 75% of it. But it’sALLin your name."

First of all I am not grumbling about the rent. I dont have a house , not anyway if ever. But what strikes me most about your reply as how you think putting up the mortgage is nothing ? How does anyone who owns a house get it. Also maths isnt your strong suite. If I owned 50% how is 50% of the rent not mine ? So how could anyone have paid 75% esp when they kept all the rent for 20 years . Love to see an Einstein like you give 100% of the rent to anyone if you owned a property.

WhereverIlaymycatthatsmyhome - "I voted YABU as you are batshit for allowing this situation to develop." So helpful - NOT. I guess you knew everything 25 years ago and now ..must be wonderful being you

I know social media can be hard but some people on here are so nasty and their replies signifies more about what kind of bitter people they are.

I did a good thing but why should I be criticized for it. My mother has had 20 years rental income while I struggled and she has never given me a penny. I buy her stuff and visit her all the time. My brother does very little.

Anyway that's me off of Mumsnet

Personally I would want shot of it but I guess the difficulty is you are not in the country and presumably she would need to do the legwork of taking keys to agents and she doesn't agree. Do you receive 50% of the rent?

If the property needs work to rent it out though you and she will either have to pay 50/50 or sell it and split the proceeds. Cautionary tale for anyone wanting to mix family and finances.

I really commiserate with you as my dps are like this and it is very frustrating. Even though they have a lot of money they don't want to spend it and expect others to help out etc. Or get quick cheap fixes on things and then wonder why it has broken again a few years down the line. I think you should just sell it. It would be less hassle all around as your dm could be around another 15 years. Also it could get even messier when she passes between you and your siblings.

It sounds like you are struggling financially whilst she is totally minted....and grumbling about it to boot?!
To be honest I would sell up and take the profit, then I would be cutting the mother and brother out of my life! She has had 120K in rent and let you suffer financially, sod her!

I'm really confused about what you have each put in. She put down a deposit and you took on the mortgage. Did you pay any mortgage repayments? Did she? Or was it all paid for through the rental income?

if the mortgage was paid by the rental income the poster above is right about the 75%. You own half the house. Your half was mortgaged so you owed all the mortgage payments. You paid those repayments back out of the rental income. But you only were entitled to half the rental income, your mum owned the other half of it. Over 5 years, did the repayment of the mortgage take up the whole of the rental income?

If that's so, then you owe her the total of half the rental income over 5 years. (equivalent to 2.5 years rent income)
But she then went on to keep all the rental income for a further 15 years after the mortgage was paid off. So she owes you half of all of that. (7.5 years rental).

You owe her 2.5 years' rental. She owes you 7.5 years rental. Which means she owes you 5 years worth of rental income.

Is the house in your sole name? As if that's the case I would tell her you will forgive the 5 years of rent she owes you, as that's been your contribution to helping her over the years and in recognition of the work she has done managing it. Sell the house, give her an amount equivalent to the half she originally put in and keep the rest. If it's in your sole name you don't even have to give her the money back she put in in the first place, but you would probably want to.

Like other posters I am worried you are liable for upkeep if it's not being done legally for the tenants.

Also, you say you don't have your own property to live in. You may be able to argue that it is your only house and avoid CGT. Or, you're out of the UK and the tax may not be payable anyway- I would take advice from lawyer or accountant!

If the CGT eats up the profit then it's better to be clear and unencumbered as soon as possible especially if the house falls into disrepair and gets harder to sell. If the amount you get at the end is heavily taxed split the tax in half and deduct your mum's half from her original 50%.

Also!! You can't "get it when she dies" - it's not her house! It is in your name! It won't form part of her estate. If your brother is her executor he might come after you for the return of the original 50% deposit at which point you'd have to argue that either it was a gift or you have paid her back with the 5 years' rent of yours she has kept. Without knowing the sums involved it's hard to tell.

The house is in your name, rightly or wrongly. Your mother has received more than her 50% input back in rent so she’s not out of pocket. Sell the house. Don’t tell your mother. Tell her you’re getting builders in or whatever to dissuade her from going there.

Put the house on the market at a sensible price to sell it quickly. Depending on the profit you make, work out if your mum is due anything. I’d do this by adding up the rental income, deducting ‘payment’ for any management you or your mum did, then giving your mum a portion of the profit if that works out fairly.

As for -
upwardsonwards "Your brother must be absolutely furious with you, I would be in his shoes. What a nightmare."
I have done nothing but help my mother get a house and an income over 20 years ..She has made about £120 k income ...3 times her investment My brother hasnt lifted a finger to help her financially, Nor as I said am i insisting she continue as I want her to stop and me to take over but she wont pay an agency fee. I am not complaining about rent as I said she could keep the rent if it goes to an estate agency or council

I think your mother should of course be very grateful but as for your brother who is getting near constant demands to support your mother on an asset that you will no doubt significantly gain from in the long term and he will benefit in no way from again I can see why he is completely furious with you. How can you not see how he might feel that way? That is obviously a bit of a blind spot for you in this.

I'm lost !

If it's in your name then it's your house isn't it ? Despite who paid what and when

This. I think selling the house is your only option.

Your mother called you cunt? Unless this is due to dementia then why on earth do you give a shit, she sounds horrible. Either sell it or change it to her name and let her get on with it. And block your brothers number, he sounds nasty too.

Give your mum back her cash investment and stop paying her any income from the property. Opt to keep the house for yourself. Update it and use it as your own retirement plan.