What to do with my mother

[HelloDeidre]

My mother has been very difficult for many years but now she is over 80 she is very unreasonable. The issue is we bought a house together many years ago. I put up the mortgage and she the cash ..almost half and half. the house is solely in my name. The mortgage was paid off in 5 years through renting the property. For 20 years after this she let the property and kept the rent . I had nothing to do with the property . Reckoned I would get it one day when she passed on . In the 20 odd years she has gained about 3 times the original value of the property in rent, Anyway she is now of an age that she cant really mange the property and it is about 30 miles from her house and my brother does not want her driving to the property and is blaming me that she is doing so. His first reaction is to shout and roar and blame others . But the thing is I live very far away in another country. I have offered to give the property to an estate agent to mange and for her to have the profits after expenses are taken out. I have offered to give the property to the council for a 5 year let and for her to keep the money on this. I work and cannot afford to retire. I cannot do the property up as I haven't the money and she has it all in the bank. If I sell the property there is very high capital gains tax to pay and when she insists on having her share I will get very very little. Though I am not sure she wants to sell, She wont pay for cleaners in the property or handymen or anything..She is very mean and wants people to do it for nothing. The thing is my brother who cant deal with her and his wife are saying I need to go there and help her let the property but I get none of the money and have no say in any of it and I have a full time job. . She even said if the property is done up I have to pay for it . She has thousands and thousands in the bank. She could get a free bus to very near the property and get a taxi for about £8 the last bit if she wants to visit it but wont do that even as wont pay for taxi . But she doesnt need to visit the property if given to estate agents or council. So she just turn up at my brothers house saying how she is worn out from cleaning and how no one is helping her. And he in turn rings me up fighting about her driving there and cleaning and how its all my responsibility to sort. I asked her if I could manage it and I wont say what she called me when I said I could take it over. . I really dont have the time to take off work, fly there and do the letting when I have no say or money from it. I dont know what to do but if I take it off of her she will have a stroke. I am so stressed by it all. Other siblings staying clear. What would you do ???

The house is in your name so your responsibility.

Your mum has received all the rent so has more than got her money back.

I'd just contact an estate agent that will fully manage it, deduct the charge from the rent, then give your mum the remainder if that was what was agreed.

It's not her decision to make so your brother is right to be pissed off. You need to sort it out.

Or just sell it. It's your house so nothing your mum can do if you sell it. It won't do family relations much good. And I assume a lump sum should you give her any equity will affect any benefits?

I agree with the poster saying your mum has mostly paid for and worked for this property. It sounds like you facilitated a mortgage as she was unable to get one later in life, but she paid that mortgage, so it's not comparable to people who fund their own house purchases and pay them back via mortgages.

I would transfer the ownership to your mother to do with as she sees fit. She's the one that funded and looked after the property and then the legal obligation towards her tenants will also be hers. Then it can be dealt with appropriately regarding tax and asset distribution on her death. You can't stop your mother complaining to your brother, but you are then at least nothing further to do with it, and he can argue with her over whether to sell or have someone manage it, leaving you out of the equation.

The property is in your name?
How have you accounted for the rental income with hmrc?
I know you say that it went straight to your mother, but you are responsible for paying the tax on it.

Maths isn’t my strong “suite”? 🤣
If we’re going for ad hominem attacks, then English isn’t yours. It’s “suit” - the saying originates from card games. HTH.

Also maths isnt your strong suit. If I owned 50% how is 50% of the rent not mine ? So how could anyone have paid 75% esp when they kept all the rent for 20 years . Love to see an Einstein like you give 100% of the rent to anyone if you owned a property.

Of course 50% of the rent is theoretically yours. Which means 50% was hers. Theoretically (morally, if you like) not legally - as it was always legally your house.

So on Day 1, you have “paid” 50/50 - her from cash you from mortgage.
The rent is theoretically split 50/50, but she received it all.
You told us that the rent paid off the mortgage after 5 years.
So after 5 years, your 50% loan has been paid off. Half of it by your share of the rent. And half of it by her share of the rent.

Let’s make it easy for you 😉

Say the house cost £100K.
She paid £50K upfront.
You took out a mortgage for £50K.
The rent for 5 years totalled £50K.
£25K or that rent was theoretically yours.
£25K was theoretically hers.
It all paid off the mortgage.
She has now put £75K into the property being owned outright.
You have put £25K.
So she has contributed £75K of the original £100K cost.

Obviously I’ve left out interest, so I don’t hurt your brain 😭

You’ve end up with legal ownership of the entire house, having done nothing but pass a mortgage credit check.

And it actually sounds like you might have done it for a lovely reason - a bank loan that the property rent will pay off so no effort to you, and it helps turn your mum’s £50K into a good regular income. It was a kind thing, and mostly a good idea. And you still benefit: getting control of the entire house and selling for a huge profit when she dies or decides not to manage it for the income. (I’m not considering that forcing a sale was ever an option in a family set up)

What you did wrong, is not think through 25+ years ago what happens if she gets old and unable to manage it properly, but refuses to let go, and your siblings start sticking their beaks in.

I do actually feel sorry for you… I genuinely think it sounds like you started this as a good idea to help your mum out financially. In the early days it was a no brainer. You can’t start hunting on here that’s it unfair that she has 1000s in the bank though, because that was the deal you decided. She gets the money now, you get it all when she dies (or decides to stop).
So what if she’s made £120K over the years?
The moment you bought it in your name, she gifted you 50% of the future value of the property. Which could easily be £120K by now - and she’s had to work for her £120K, whilst you haven’t. It sounds like a fair deal to me though. She got an income, you got an investment.

As I said above -where you’ve come unstuck is not factoring in this tricky period.

I’m in my 50s, and so I’m surrounded by friends dealing with people in their 80s. I may get shot down here for ageism… but honestly, my experience is that for many, it’s a really difficult age. My MIL is refusing to go into a home but also refusing carers - and my husband is run ragged working full time and helping her, and arguing with siblings who’ll do varying amounts and have different opinions. She has become very entrenched and also given to catastrophising in a way that she simply wouldn’t have a few years ago. An example… my husband does a lot of washing for her. Continence related. Carers would do it - but she doesn’t want strangers. I suggested that he collect it on the way to work, service wash at laundrette, drop it back. But she won’t hear off the waste of money (hers or his) and also gets panicky that they won’t do it “properly”. Honestly, in her 70s she’d have been the one to suggest it! This sounds like where you are - many good practical options, but you’re blocked by someone who isn’t making the practical decisions for emotional or cognitive reasons.

As to what you should do…
It depends a bit on whether the property is currently let, I can’t work it out from your post. It sounds like you might be between tenants?

This is very simple the house is in your name so you take over it. Send someone to change the locks and book the cleaner and hand it over to an agent

See it as you are doing her a favour

@HelloDeidre if you're still here op, I get it, it can feel like you're being unjustly attacked and judged by complete strangers online, but that's always the risk with online forums. AIBU does usually tend to attract some harsh responses, no idea why but it's always been that way since I joined MN over a decade ago.

You've also had some helpful responses though, try to focus on those and filter out any nasty or batshit types. You might want to try posting on the elderly parents or relationships sections on MN instead, possibly the property section if you want more practical advice than how to handle relations with your dm and db.

Hope you haven't left op as you've had some good advice as well. Sorry I'm not much help with the practicalities, but if your dm has financially benefited more than you over the 20 years, despite both putting up the same £ to purchase the house, I'd say she's done pretty well out of the arrangement (whereby she keeps all the rental income for managing the property). If that no longer works for either of you, she's getting elderly and struggling, and you are getting hassle about it from dm and db, then why not give an ultimatum? Options are: either hand over to an estate agent for rental, or the council scheme you mentioned, or sell the house. There are no other options, your dm can no longer manage the property for rental, db isn't involved apart from having a go at you, stop taking his calls for a breather from it. He's probably just resentful that he hasn't got any benefit from the property but is getting the moaning from your dm when he sees it as your problem to deal with.

You clearly can't be expected to manage the property from abroad, or just hop on a plane whenever. You have to try and develop a thick skin about the crap coming from dm and db, families can be hurtful and batshit (I can vouch for that personally and therapy over the years has made me aware it won't ever change, we can't control others' behaviour only how we react to it etc) Give dm a timeframe you feel is reasonable to make a decision, and if she won't budge and refuses to be rational, then make the final decision yourself, you're entitled to. Yes there may be a tantrum and fall out, but that's where dm is either no longer rational, and the decision needs to be made for her, or, she is well aware she can get you to do what she wants and control the situation with emotional blackmail (your comment about causing her a stroke shows she's already doing this, my own dm has often used a potential stroke as emotionally blackmail in our family)

Apoarently she’ll have a stroke if she does that though.
I don’t know about that… but I am sure that the emotional fall out would be huge.

I think the way to go is to give ONE very clear alternative option to his mum. Just one, keep it simple. Even if it’s not the you’d do - just keep it really simply. So for example: renting it to the council with her having all the rental income.

Then, every time she or the brother complains, put on the broken record, “it’s too much for you/her now, I understand, the alternative is the council option.”

And then refuse to get into any further discussion.

The situation will resolve itself eventually and frankly - heartless as it sounds - what happens today won’t change the timing of the investment payout. Unless OP does actually cause mum to have a stroke over it… 😉

Just keep to the one option, presented at every complaint.

I actually love this reply and wish you’d stay. We need more posters who will stand up to the snark on MN.

OP you are being a bit over sensitive in your response (although some people have been harsh). Agree with you on the questionable maths!

From what you’ve said she put in £40k cash, you put in £40k mortgage. You kept the rent for the first 5 years and paid off the mortgage. Then 20 years after she’s taken the rent and received £120k.

I think you need to be a bit more assertive. She can’t manage so just put all the numbers down and give options.
a) 5 year council tenancy - no input needed. You split the rent
b) letting agent does the work. You split the rent
c) You sell the house. After capital gains you’ll make a substantial profit. You take the first £50k (she’s already had £80k more than you but has done all the work), after that profits are split 50:50

Leave the options on the table. Open to other ideas but not entering into a long negotiation.

Just sell it @HelloDeidre. It’s clearly more trouble than it’s worth and your mum’s had her money back with a handsome profit. It seems no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry for some of the vile responses you’ve had.

There is a House coming on the market ( waiting for probate) which my Mother wants me to get her a mortgage in my name for. She will be paying the cash/ deposit. She too would like to rent it out and pay the mortgage payments. After reading your post I am seriously reconsidering everything!
I can totally understand op how you had best intentions to help your Mother at the time (like I currently do)

Honestly. It's in your name so I'd sell it and give her half. The nightmare is over with then, no more stress.

This.

Get rid, job done. Even if you don't get much from it you'll be rid of the headache.

Thanks everyone for replies

I would love to sell but with solicitor fees, estate agents and capital gains tax there is about 100K left . I can take my part ok as taxes paid in my name

But I cant give her her share (she will want it all by the way) without her paying alot of tax... She pays no tax at present as has state pension and all income from house

However 50k will be seen as a gift from me and that means a heavy personal tax (which she doesnt want to pay)

I guess the moral of the story is dont enter into a financial arrangement with anyone unless strongly agreed terms and assured reasonable partner..my mother was never that ...all her life she has been so difficult. For instance I havent had a Christmas present or card from her since I was a child though I give every year as do my siblings. When asked why her reply was 'why should I'

many parents give their children property or a lump sum towards property. My mother has 2 houses and I started late on the property ladder and struggle with a massive mortgage. And she doesnt want me to have the house even after she is gone because as she says 'I never got nothing from no one' She conveniently forgets that her mother bought her house for her. She wants me to do up the house with my money and then for her to rent it at market value rather than less for less modern house as she wont put money into it

I was foolish to get involved in this. But no good deed goes punished. My advice to other poster is have written agreed terms and a time limited agreement if you do go ahead but maybe help your mother in another way if you want to

Just seen your update, in that case keep the money. Set 25% in a separate bank account, and use it to buy her things when she needs them. When it runs out, it runs out.

But I cant give her her share (she will want it all by the way) without her paying alot of tax... She pays no tax at present as has state pension and all income from house

However 50k will be seen as a gift from me and that means a heavy personal tax (which she doesnt want to pay)

But surely this is your way out of the headache. Either spell it out that this is what will happen if she doesn't shut her yap and go with a suggested option, or just go ahead and do it. What she wants here isn't important. There's fuck all she can do about it.

Sounds like you need to come out the FOG tbh and stop seeing her as someone you're obligated to just because she's your mother. You're not obligated.

When she dies, it will be yours free and clear as you are the sole owner on the deeds. I suggest you seek advice from a solicitor and sell. She shouldn’t get 50% of the current equity given she has been taking 100% of the rent (why did you allow this?)

Ignore your brother’s angry attitude and sell. It’s clear she isn’t coping or doesn’t want to cope with the management. Using an agent is usually at least 8% but the property needs to be kept up or you will end up selling for less than it’s worth when she dies if it isn’t properly maintained.

When she dies, it will be yours free and clear as you are the sole owner on the deeds.

It’s already hers free and clear. Legally she owns the property.

Just take the property back from her. It is in your name.

Take the rent after agent fees and reuse it to update the house so it is fit for sale.

She has had a good thing. You have done your duty. You will simply never please her. Your brother sounds like he has heard a one eyed version of events and probably doesn't realise the house is in your name.

See her initial payment as a mortgage that has been paid back with interest over the last twenty years. My understanding is that you have paid the mortgage during this time without receiving any rent?

Thanks everyone

All taxes are paid on the income and I have never had a penny from the house

I will sort it now but anyone who ever had a very difficult mother will know that this is so difficult as she wants it all her way. I dont want to fall out with her but she doesnt want to sell, she doesnt want to pay management, she wants me to do it all and her to reap rewards and she knows what she is doing when she complains to my brother...BTW he has done nothing about the house ever..he refuses to

i guess i am working towards the best option...just milling around approaches....in the end there will be fall out

“she doesnt want me to have the house even after she is gone”

”But I cant give her her share (she will want it all by the way)”

Well thank fuck it is in your name. Maybe - I actually think it would be better if it wasn’t and you could just walk away 😔

What was the decision making process behind all this? It sounds like even though the house is solely in your name, you both expect her to receive a share of the capital.

You didn’t like me pointing out that you’ve never put in any money or effort yourself, but unless I’ve misunderstood your posts - it’s true. The money came from a mortgage in your name, but the repayments came from the rent. So you never personally had to contribute any money. You said you’ve had nothing to do with the house at all.

I thought this was your idea initially to help your mum turn £50K cash into a regular income, with you benefitting from a long term investment. But now I wonder if it was all her idea (maybe even bullying you into it), and she just “borrowed” your name for the necessary mortgage part. I don’t mean without your permission… but in her mind, does she feel you’ve done nothing but provide a bit of easy admin? Hence why she wants it all.

Why was it in your name in the first place?

The more you post, the most of a nightmare she sounds.

I still think your best option is hardball her and your brother, offer the council rental or carry on as you are, broken record. Sit pretty, and as it’s in your name it’ll come to you eventually anyway, and you’ve still made a profit even if it degrades uninhabited for a decade.

I don’t think you have the stomach for a legal battle to sell it from under her - or the money for that legal battle either. Sure it’s in your name, but I daresay a solicitor paid by the hour would rub their hands at the mess that’s been made by you both thinking she still has a share in it, and letting her take the rent from it. I’m no expert in beneficial interests - but this situation screams that you’d have to pay a lot of money to someone who is, before you got anywhere near taking control of it.

The other option that I can think of, is to try to give it to her. Just walk away. Maybe you’ll inherit it back later, maybe you won’t. But as you’ve never put any real money of your own into it, you’ve not lost out there. I’m not disputing that the rent is your money too - but what I mean is that it all came as part of the property deal situation. You haven’t ever had to pay in real money you’ve earned for it. But… you can’t just give it to her, because CGT will assume a certain increase in value even if you gave it to her for free.

The first thing I’d do here is get very good legal and tax advice on the legal ownership, beneficial interest and CGT points.

Then the next part is more about strategy with family. Which is why I find myself going back to option 1: offer the get out and then hardball. At least you live in another country! Every call, “oh brother, not this again - you know there is nothing I can do but rent it to the council and mum has a little less rent after their cut, and I’m still taking nothing. So there’s nothing more for us to say. I’m sorry mum gives you the grief about being too tired to clean it. That’s not fair on you. That’s why the council solution is a good one. But she has to agree. So tell her that when she complains to you.”

Sure it’s in your name, but I daresay a solicitor paid by the hour would run their hands as the mess that’s been made by you both thinking she still has a share in it, and letting her take the rent from it. I’m no expert in beneficial interests - but this situations screams that you’d have to pay a lot of money to someone who is, before you got anywhere near taking control of it.

That’s ridiculous. No solicitor could do anything about the legal ownership which is in OP’s name. The rest is irrelevant noise. Too right you’re no expert in beneficial interests - or legal ownership.