By calling a surgeon sir, or should I call him doctor?

[teaandcake32]

I am aware there is etiquette around addressing Dr's and surgeons.

Should you call a surgeon Mr ..........., what if you don't know his surname.

Would Sir be an insult? Would Dr be an insult?

Please help me find the correct terminology, wise women of Mumsnet.

Probably not if the surgeon is a woman...

Consultant surgeons go by Mr. Non Consultant Surgeons would still be Dr. So it depends on his level of training and his job role.

Can you give some context here? Is it at an appointment or what?

Only if it is the 1890s.

Is this in a letter or face to face?

Face to face - they should have introduced themselves. Or just ask them what their name is.

In a letter either you know their name, possibly with help from Google so Mr/Miss.

Or you don't so it isn't to a specific person so 'Dear bowel surgery team' is fine. The secretaries sort out which letter goes where anyway.

Not quite. Most surgical registrars are "Mr"/ "Ms" too, once they've been admitted to the Royal College of Surgeons.

Unless you are a waiter being exaggeratedly polite (“would Sir like to taste the wine?”) it’s on a par with calling them “your excellency”, or “my lord”.

Do you call anybody else Sir, in your life?

I've always called people "doctor" or "nurse" when I've been in hospital/at the GPs.

Eg. "Thank you, Doctor" not "Thank you, Dr Smith".

I always call the bus driver "Driver" too, but don't do this for any other professions. "Thank you, Dentist" sounds weird!

I certainly wouldn't say sir, as it's just not the appropriate term. If I didn't know their surname, I'd go for doctor.

Surgeons are dr in their early training (until they've passed their exams), then they become Mr or miss. No surgical consultant goes by Dr

(Doi anaesthetist)

They can also actually choose whether to remain doctor or Mr / Mrs / Miss / Ms. Not many do (vanishingly small amount) but it's not compulsory to change.

@TrishTrix - thanks for that. I worked as a midwife in Scotland and it floored me a bit (had worked as a qualified nurse in England).

The reason they are called Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms is because traditionally surgeons were not doctors, they were trades and would apprentice to another surgeon rather than go to medical school, therefore didn't have the degree needed to be a doctor, nor could they take the hippocratic oath because the surgery would break the "first do no harm" rule.

By the 1800s it became normal for surgeons to first become "doctors" and then specialise as a surgeon, I put doctors in quotes because very few "doctors" in Britain hold a doctorate, most have a BMBS (double bachelors degree, bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery) - so the title "doctor" is a professional title, only if they have an MD do they actually have a doctorate.

In answer to OP, use Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms or first name.

Not Sir, I'm a male teacher and that title is reserved for my profession and long may it continue!!😀

Afraid Sir is already taken by male prison officers. Miss is for female staff.

When anyone addresses me as Miss outside of prison I instantly assume they are ex prisoners.

So far, always been correct.

Why the hell not?

A very health service answer!

When someone asks you what a medical acronym means, why would you answer with a list of other medical acronyms that they also won't understand?

Maddening!!

As others have said, "Mr" for a surgeon was originally a bit of an insult. Surgeons were barber surgeons and not medically qualified and the medical establishment of the time liked to make the distinction. Later, the surgical community turned it round to becoming something of an honour, so typically a would be surgeon goes from being Mr as a medical student, then Dr once they qualify, and back to Mr when they pass their final Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons exam. (Obviously same applies for Miss/Mrs/Ms for women.) It's being post Fellowship that makes the difference, not being a Consultant. Some Obs & Gynae doctors follow the same convention but it's less common. Lots of ED doctors also swap to Mr/Miss post Fellowship but other specialties stick to Dr throughout.
As far as I know it's a uniquely British convention. I've worked with quite a lot of surgeons from other countries who have called themselves Dr in arrival, been quite confused as to why everyone is referring to them as Mr/Miss initially and then embraced what they see as an oddity eventually!
But to answer the OP's question, if I didn't know a surgeon's name/title and they didn't introduce themselves, I would do exactly the same as I would with anyone else - ask them. They should be wearing an ID badge too.

Of course it's important to know your full name to tell you apart, but you could tell me that without resorting to the archaic honorifics.

I guarantee you that regardless of how good your introduction and role explanation, a good 90% of patients seeing this team would say 'I saw the nurse, nice lady called Cathy' 😉

Absolutely agree. Unfortunately, archaic though it may be, using titles is helpful on a lot of occasions, especially now that white coats are a thing of the past and particularly in environments like theatres and ICU where most staff are wearing the same thing and can't be identified by their uniform. Lots of patients do like to know the role of the person they are being looked after - that's obvious from all the threads regarding PAs - and titles are often the best way to make that clear.
Even then it doesn't always work of course, especially for women.
I wish I had a pound for every time I had carefully introduced myself to a patient, shown them my ID badge and explained my role, only to have them assume the male ODP was the doctor when we got into the anaesthetic room.
One of my particular favourites was being told that I couldn't possibly be a Consultant as I'm too short! Fortunately for me, being measured wasn't part of the selection process in my Trust. 😂😂

I used to make a big deal of who I was etc but after too many home visits where the patient would pick up the phone and say 'I'm with the nurse' I've given up now.

I'm old and experienced enough not to feel slighted by it.

However one day a week I do visits with a very forthright nurse and when the patients start mucking about (being vague here but its a niche job with a very complex patient group who enjoy playing people off against each other) she will very loudly and firmly say 'You have not just seen the doctor, you have seen The Consultant!'

It's great, in a slightly embarrassing way.

Well this thread is enlightening! What about Dental Surgeons? Dr or Mr/Ms?

Surgeons have historically been called Mr. This dates from when surgeons were deemed not proper doctors.

A consultant physician (Dr Smith FRCP) is of equal status to a consultant surgeon (Mr Jones FRCS)

All of my consultants in nearly 20 years of NHS treatment have been Dr Name. I haven't needed surgery so I don't know if that's where the divide is.
My daughter is currently under 2 consultant paediatrician and they are both Dr Name.

I'm in a profession where most people are Dr and it's our professional title but most of us will accept Dr/Mr/Ms/Prof as long none of the titles are said with malice! Personally I accept any title except Mrs Name as that's my mum!

The appointment letter or text is usually a good place to start for their preferred titles.