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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To want to go to medical school at 37?

432 replies

MilanHilton · 03/01/2024 08:02

I’m 37, married with two nursery aged children. Husband and I both earn £45k each so we live comfortably but not well off.

My medical care when I was pregnant was atrocious and the NHS was negligent (they admitted it). Which really got me thinking… I want to be a doctor that LISTENS to women so that what happened to me won’t happen to another lady.

I know I’m old, and coming from a non science background I’ll have to do 6 years in medical school and then extra training to be an OBGYN. Looking at the junior doctor pay bands it is going to take me years to get back to my current salary. Not to mention needing to do shift work and the stress of it all.

Financially it will be a tight decade and by the time I finish uni, the kids will be towards the end of primary so hopefully life will be easier. I’ll be mid 40s when I finish medical school so will still have another 20 years of working still.

AIBU for considering putting my young family through a decade of financial and emotional stress with the hope that I’ll earn more in the future? Is it worth the stress?

AINBU - go be a doctor! You’ll save lives (sometimes)
AIBU - that’s too much work and financial turmoil, even if you become a doctor you’re not going to address the chronic lack of resource in NHS

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
toomuchfaff · 04/01/2024 21:16

ToeSucker · 04/01/2024 21:10

I appreciate what you're trying to say and I agree with you. But your understanding of the training system is a bit outdated. It's been uni blind etc since 2008. SHO is 3 years now as well.
Congrats on going into IT though. I did the same.

Show quote history

yeah absolutely happy to be corrected, my decision to no proceed was taken in 2004 hahaha so way back! 😄 but reading all these responses... omg 💖 😲

Mirabai · 04/01/2024 21:20

RareApricity · 04/01/2024 16:34

Why would they go to be a PA though? They can earn £200k+ pa as a management consultant or in pharma if it were about the money.

Edited

It’s a moot point because doctors can’t.

The point would not be about money but about staying within healthcare.

Angelil · 04/01/2024 21:40

My sister is a doctor . She is 34, started at 18, took 1 year out to intercalate and is STILL 2 years away from becoming a consultant anaesthetist (and she has no kids yet so has spent no time out on maternity leave or anything). You would be INSANE. The hourly rate is pitiful and you are forgetting all that you have to pay EVERY year in exams, GMC registration and insurance, not just until you become a consultant but beyond this as well for the latter two expenses. Plus all the other reasons that previous posters have already stated.

MuckyPlucky · 04/01/2024 21:42

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 21:07

I am moved by the urgency and fervent imploring of the Doctors here who beg our OP to reconsider her decision. She has said she will not take up this idea anyway.

What distresses me so much is that the Junior Doctors have been suffering the conditions, the worst of which certainly sounds to be the enforced constant relocating to any part of the country, which necessitates moving away from family in many cases, for a long time. I can sympathise with their strike for this reason in itself. Sadly I think the country will only look at the subject of pay and not understand 'loss in real terms'.

But surely, as highly qualified and most intelligent people, it is time to simply say, 'NO!' to the inhumane shifting around the country? I think it has gone on long enough and it's time you all spoke of it as though it were an immovable feast. Get behind the strike over this if nothing else! The system must treat you humanely. If you are to be qualified, and the country needs you to be, then tell them to treat you as human beings.

I try not to mention who I know in case someone works out who I am or to whom I refer. But fortunately this time my knowledge goes back over a few years and covers quite a lot of Doctors from different Medical Schools and cities. I remember when they were not being shoved all over the country quite like this and I am strongly aware of how they are now. It has to stop! Most of them are of an age when they want to, or have started a young family. It is just appalling to see what this does to them.
Please, all you hard-working and terribly abused Doctors, work together to stop this! Maybe get a special group on it and publish this horrible problem everywhere so that the Public know what is happening. Mothers should not be forced away from their toddlers because their job requires they work a few hundred miles away in order they keep their job! Fathers should not be forced to find somewhere to live away from their family because their job makes them move every few months. It's not like the Army, although that's bad enough, but they organise these things and it is necessary. This is unnecessary, thoughtless, indeed callous abuse of young families. The general public need to know what our Doctors go through to become qualified.

I shall tell as many people as possible and shall be writing to complain to my MP.

We shall not have a good Health Service if we abuse our Doctors like this.

I would still encourage someone like our OP, if they are really committed, to become a Doctor. Times change, and even this Forum in spreading these important facts will have moved things forward in the fight for improving the conditions under which our Junior Doctors work. Things must change.

Are you on Glue perhaps? Your Posting Style is truly Strange.

WeeMary · 04/01/2024 21:47

Cut off point is 30 in Scotland.

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 21:52

Salacia

I’ve read a lot of crap on here over the years but being personally blamed for my own terrible working conditions might be the worst yet.

I deeply and sincerely apologise. I hope that does not sound sarcastic because it is sincere. I am very sorry I hurt you.

I get worked up about things that preevent people being able to do their job properly and people being abused at work. But I get exasperated when people behave as though nothing can be changed. This example might explain it: I went through the bad times of the Teaching profession some years ago and eventually my patience cracked when. as a parent. I was given an appointment to see my daughter's form Teacher following the death of my husband, her father.

I was invited to talk with her standing at the top of the stairs above the entrance hall. Not in a room privately and sitting down. Pupils walked by. No privacy. Everyone knew me because I was a Teacher and had other connections with Education in the area. Thinking I would sympathise and possibly even admire her, the Teacher said, she had to see me there because she was on duty and I'd know how busy Teachers are. so she had to do her Pastoral Care while supervising the lunch break. This was the precise kind of example that made me angry with Teachers. I could not stand the martyrdom! All it did was to let down the Pupils! I actually said, you're telling me you can't do your job properly, what are you doing about it? I did not say it but my husband's death was not a 'normal' one and my children deserved someone who at least cared at their school.

The above example is to try and explain It's that sort of fighting spirit thing I get about something like the Junior Doctors' treatment. But when I'm writing it comes across too fiercely and attacks someone who does not deserve it. LIke you.

But please, all of you, especially Doctors, PLEASE fight for the conditions you need! It's not a luxury you are asking for. It's a necessity so you can do what you are there to do! Please fight all the time, speak up, be brave, go to the top tell them you cannot do your job if the conditions treat you like a wet rag. A wet rag cannot save lives. Write to your MP all of you a letter a week. Patients have no idea what you are suffering. TELL THEM! It is your professional responsibility to your Patients to get the right conditions in which you can work properly.

Sorry again, and for the capital letters. I know people say it's shouting. but I am on your side! Just don't give up!

It would be a good start to send these letters discouraging someone from entering Medical School, to the Health Minister. You send it to your MP and ask them to show it to the Minister for Health. Tell him you are telling people not to become Doctors because it is so awful working in the current system. But what will happen to Patients when there are no Doctors qualifying?

It's a very serious problem. Very serious.

Manthide · 04/01/2024 21:52

toomuchfaff · 04/01/2024 20:12

So I used to be an ICU nurse, working in very close proximity to a range of medical Drs at all levels, and I went through a phase where I wanted to take the next step on my path and considered training to be a Dr, I was fortunate to be able to speak to many colleagues and get their views, ask for their experience, any tips.

Long story short, I went into IT. I went to university, did a degree in computers and went into IT.

Don't do it.

For a start; a red brick university makes a difference. Not wanting to assume, but I will; you're not rocking up at Cambridge or Oxford at 37 and being accepted, so you're not going to graduate from a red brick, this will impact your ability to get placements both during your training and after. The medical field is hugely hierarchical and your history makes a difference..topside from that is the timeline; to start you have to do 7 years training, then another couple as a junior house officer, then onto senior house officer which is another 5, so we are already at 13 years and you're not on 40k yet and you've probably not had a solid 10 hour sleep for the last 10 yrs and you're knackered and half dead; is that putting you somewhere near retirement? 🤔

Dd1 read medicine at Cambridge and she says it makes no difference when you apply for placements as they don't indicate the university attended. They are looked at blind.

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 22:05

MuckyPlucky ·

You are strange! Also rude. Since when did encouraging people to do everything they can to get better working conditions so that they can do a very important job properly, become a thing that you want to be rude about?

Everybody should be supporting the Junior Doctors now they know what they go through.

If we don't do something to make our Government and the Medical Education system treat Doctors humanely we'll find ourselves without any Doctors. And only ourselves to blame for not trying to make things better for them.

MuckyPlucky · 04/01/2024 22:11

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 21:52

Salacia

I’ve read a lot of crap on here over the years but being personally blamed for my own terrible working conditions might be the worst yet.

I deeply and sincerely apologise. I hope that does not sound sarcastic because it is sincere. I am very sorry I hurt you.

I get worked up about things that preevent people being able to do their job properly and people being abused at work. But I get exasperated when people behave as though nothing can be changed. This example might explain it: I went through the bad times of the Teaching profession some years ago and eventually my patience cracked when. as a parent. I was given an appointment to see my daughter's form Teacher following the death of my husband, her father.

I was invited to talk with her standing at the top of the stairs above the entrance hall. Not in a room privately and sitting down. Pupils walked by. No privacy. Everyone knew me because I was a Teacher and had other connections with Education in the area. Thinking I would sympathise and possibly even admire her, the Teacher said, she had to see me there because she was on duty and I'd know how busy Teachers are. so she had to do her Pastoral Care while supervising the lunch break. This was the precise kind of example that made me angry with Teachers. I could not stand the martyrdom! All it did was to let down the Pupils! I actually said, you're telling me you can't do your job properly, what are you doing about it? I did not say it but my husband's death was not a 'normal' one and my children deserved someone who at least cared at their school.

The above example is to try and explain It's that sort of fighting spirit thing I get about something like the Junior Doctors' treatment. But when I'm writing it comes across too fiercely and attacks someone who does not deserve it. LIke you.

But please, all of you, especially Doctors, PLEASE fight for the conditions you need! It's not a luxury you are asking for. It's a necessity so you can do what you are there to do! Please fight all the time, speak up, be brave, go to the top tell them you cannot do your job if the conditions treat you like a wet rag. A wet rag cannot save lives. Write to your MP all of you a letter a week. Patients have no idea what you are suffering. TELL THEM! It is your professional responsibility to your Patients to get the right conditions in which you can work properly.

Sorry again, and for the capital letters. I know people say it's shouting. but I am on your side! Just don't give up!

It would be a good start to send these letters discouraging someone from entering Medical School, to the Health Minister. You send it to your MP and ask them to show it to the Minister for Health. Tell him you are telling people not to become Doctors because it is so awful working in the current system. But what will happen to Patients when there are no Doctors qualifying?

It's a very serious problem. Very serious.

Is that you, Donald?!

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 22:17

mumsneedwine · 04/01/2024 20:05

Doctors pay scales. For a 40 hour week (although mostly work 60+). No say on where you live in the country, move every 4-6 months, endless exams which you have to pay for, can't always get leave (including for own wedding). Understaffed, over worked and now not even valued. And we wonder why they are saying don't do it. Most are planning to leave for countries that do value them. But hey, we can offer some nice claps.

£8billion cost of scrapping IHT. £1 billion the cost of FPR. Can anyone see the issue ?

This is perfect.

We should all send this to our MP and ask it to go to the Sec of State for Health, with a message in our own words. Saving the NHS starts with treating Doctors humanely. We are losing our Doctors. Not surprising when you learn the above.

RM2013 · 04/01/2024 23:54

Sometimes our life experiences make us want to make big changes and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having these dreams.
I joined the NHS and re-trained from a very different career when I was in my 30’s. It was tough, my children were very young and working shifts was hard. I was fortunate to get funding to re train so we weren’t impacted financially.
After around 8 years in the job I came close to a breakdown - working during Covid was especially tough, I felt I had no work/life balance, the shifts were horrendous and the mental strain was overwhelming.
im still working in the same profession but now in a clinic based role which gives me more family time - no shifts and I feel so much healthier.

if I had my time again I’m not sure I’d have put myself and my family through what I did even though I love my job.

I hope you find something that inspires you

Destiny123 · 05/01/2024 03:45

burnoutbabe · 03/01/2024 08:35

I think graduate medicine is an exception to the no funding for second degrees.

But it's very very competitive! Many people apply for it and loads of them will have very relevant backgrounds, in allied professions or sciences.

Check out student room for details.

Fab if they have, certainly wasn't in 2014 when I graduated all my mates were still working nights between uni days and struggling to get bank loans it was awful

Anahenzaris · 05/01/2024 05:53

look into it seriously, crunch the numbers, evaluate realistic spousal support, and then if you still want to do it - go for it!

Let’s say you are 50 before you are working in your preferred role. That’s about 17-20 years of your career before retirement. You should enjoy that time!

Most likely you’d be working in the industry much earlier - so even more reason to do something you think you’d love.

I stress the look into is seriously part though. Med is a gruelling degree and historically not family friendly. The internships can be borderline abusive (or just outright abusive). It can take a very long time to build up income and repay the investment, and not everyone makes it through (true of every career). You also need to expect to like the work, because the motivation of nobody else should experience poor treatment is hard to use as sustainable motivation - especially if you are there in an understaffed unit and yourself not able to give everything you want.

good luck

Fromthestart · 05/01/2024 08:52

Hi I'm in my 40s and a med student. Please feel free to message me. I also have a young child and other commitments. You only have one life if this is your passion then go for it.

withthischoice · 05/01/2024 09:01

Itsdifferentnow · 04/01/2024 21:52

Salacia

I’ve read a lot of crap on here over the years but being personally blamed for my own terrible working conditions might be the worst yet.

I deeply and sincerely apologise. I hope that does not sound sarcastic because it is sincere. I am very sorry I hurt you.

I get worked up about things that preevent people being able to do their job properly and people being abused at work. But I get exasperated when people behave as though nothing can be changed. This example might explain it: I went through the bad times of the Teaching profession some years ago and eventually my patience cracked when. as a parent. I was given an appointment to see my daughter's form Teacher following the death of my husband, her father.

I was invited to talk with her standing at the top of the stairs above the entrance hall. Not in a room privately and sitting down. Pupils walked by. No privacy. Everyone knew me because I was a Teacher and had other connections with Education in the area. Thinking I would sympathise and possibly even admire her, the Teacher said, she had to see me there because she was on duty and I'd know how busy Teachers are. so she had to do her Pastoral Care while supervising the lunch break. This was the precise kind of example that made me angry with Teachers. I could not stand the martyrdom! All it did was to let down the Pupils! I actually said, you're telling me you can't do your job properly, what are you doing about it? I did not say it but my husband's death was not a 'normal' one and my children deserved someone who at least cared at their school.

The above example is to try and explain It's that sort of fighting spirit thing I get about something like the Junior Doctors' treatment. But when I'm writing it comes across too fiercely and attacks someone who does not deserve it. LIke you.

But please, all of you, especially Doctors, PLEASE fight for the conditions you need! It's not a luxury you are asking for. It's a necessity so you can do what you are there to do! Please fight all the time, speak up, be brave, go to the top tell them you cannot do your job if the conditions treat you like a wet rag. A wet rag cannot save lives. Write to your MP all of you a letter a week. Patients have no idea what you are suffering. TELL THEM! It is your professional responsibility to your Patients to get the right conditions in which you can work properly.

Sorry again, and for the capital letters. I know people say it's shouting. but I am on your side! Just don't give up!

It would be a good start to send these letters discouraging someone from entering Medical School, to the Health Minister. You send it to your MP and ask them to show it to the Minister for Health. Tell him you are telling people not to become Doctors because it is so awful working in the current system. But what will happen to Patients when there are no Doctors qualifying?

It's a very serious problem. Very serious.

i have read, reread and then had another go at reading this post

and it still comes across as a rant about one interaction with one teacher from which the poster has extrapolated an enormous amount from. Added to which, it’s bloody difficult to make head nor tail of relevance to the Op

withthischoice · 05/01/2024 09:06

When people say 'You clearly have no idea' I know immediately that this is a person who can neither reason properly nor give a rational argument.

Or they trade a very long and waffley post that doesn’t make sense and clearly demonstrates the the author has “no idea” what they are talking about

ruffles1 · 05/01/2024 09:51

I’m a clinical psychologist working in a maternity hospital working closely with obstetric staff to ensure that women have a psychologically informed birth experience. We work with women antenatally and postnatally following difficult or traumatic births and also see parents with babies in the neonatal unit. It is highly rewarding and a very valued service by staff and patients. We also provide consultation, supervision and reflective practice to midwives/ medical staff. Clinical psychology is also a long training route but we also have specialist midwives and clinical associates ( degree in psychology+masters in applied psych ) so f you wanted to go back into the system from a professional perspective and make a difference to women’s experience then could this be an option?

MuckyPlucky · 05/01/2024 10:17

withthischoice · 05/01/2024 09:01

i have read, reread and then had another go at reading this post

and it still comes across as a rant about one interaction with one teacher from which the poster has extrapolated an enormous amount from. Added to which, it’s bloody difficult to make head nor tail of relevance to the Op

Show quote history

Snap. It’s all rather bizarre.

CantGetInToday · 05/01/2024 10:28

MuckyPlucky · 04/01/2024 21:42

Are you on Glue perhaps? Your Posting Style is truly Strange.

Show quote history

My thoughts too.

CantGetInToday · 05/01/2024 10:31

Anahenzaris · 05/01/2024 05:53

look into it seriously, crunch the numbers, evaluate realistic spousal support, and then if you still want to do it - go for it!

Let’s say you are 50 before you are working in your preferred role. That’s about 17-20 years of your career before retirement. You should enjoy that time!

Most likely you’d be working in the industry much earlier - so even more reason to do something you think you’d love.

I stress the look into is seriously part though. Med is a gruelling degree and historically not family friendly. The internships can be borderline abusive (or just outright abusive). It can take a very long time to build up income and repay the investment, and not everyone makes it through (true of every career). You also need to expect to like the work, because the motivation of nobody else should experience poor treatment is hard to use as sustainable motivation - especially if you are there in an understaffed unit and yourself not able to give everything you want.

good luck

The thing is, early 50s can be a difficult age for many women. Certainly, it is a time of life that my friends and I are struggling with a bit both psychologically and physically. After sailing through life pretty easily so far.

Of course it is not the case for everyone and there are many advantages of getting older. However I certainly would not be wanting to do my junior doctor training at this age. Not in a million years. In my forties I could have managed it; I had more energy then!

toomuchfaff · 05/01/2024 10:41

Manthide · 04/01/2024 21:52

Dd1 read medicine at Cambridge and she says it makes no difference when you apply for placements as they don't indicate the university attended. They are looked at blind.

Show quote history

Ah my experience was 20 yrs ago, understandably its different now.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 05/01/2024 11:59

In the very unlikely chance you’re still reading…

I am not a doctor and won’t try and advise on that - you’ve had superb advice already from the doctors on the thread.

I, like you, was a person who was ignored by doctors when I kept raiding my worries, and was ultimately right about them. I nearly died at 32 and to save my life, I needed emergency surgery which took my fertility and sent me into menopause that would take up a huge chunk of my working life.

I have a lot of trauma around this but one thing that’s clear to me now is that not one of the doctors decided not to “listen” to me. They are all the product of a horrific toxic system which prevents them from giving the care they’d like to give. I was just extremely extremely unlucky. Most people in my situation, had they been ignored, would’ve been fine.

I think what’s gotten doctors’ backs up is your belief that - unlike them - you actually want to help women. That you would somehow so how be able to overcome the toxicity of an environment where doctors can’t provide the absolute gold standard of care to every single patient - because you have “more empathy”.

If’s a very arrogant way of looking at this, and I wonder if that’s standing in the way of you processing what happened to you.

What happened to you was dreadful. But it probably didn’t happen because you were treated by someone who decided they don’t care about women and had loads of time but didn’t want to spend it listening to you.

ToeSucker · 05/01/2024 13:58

fitzwilliamdarcy · 05/01/2024 11:59

In the very unlikely chance you’re still reading…

I am not a doctor and won’t try and advise on that - you’ve had superb advice already from the doctors on the thread.

I, like you, was a person who was ignored by doctors when I kept raiding my worries, and was ultimately right about them. I nearly died at 32 and to save my life, I needed emergency surgery which took my fertility and sent me into menopause that would take up a huge chunk of my working life.

I have a lot of trauma around this but one thing that’s clear to me now is that not one of the doctors decided not to “listen” to me. They are all the product of a horrific toxic system which prevents them from giving the care they’d like to give. I was just extremely extremely unlucky. Most people in my situation, had they been ignored, would’ve been fine.

I think what’s gotten doctors’ backs up is your belief that - unlike them - you actually want to help women. That you would somehow so how be able to overcome the toxicity of an environment where doctors can’t provide the absolute gold standard of care to every single patient - because you have “more empathy”.

If’s a very arrogant way of looking at this, and I wonder if that’s standing in the way of you processing what happened to you.

What happened to you was dreadful. But it probably didn’t happen because you were treated by someone who decided they don’t care about women and had loads of time but didn’t want to spend it listening to you.

I am a former doctor and this is a bloody brilliantly written post. Thank you!

Itsdifferentnow · 05/01/2024 14:03

MuckyPlucky · Today 10:17

withthischoice · Today 09:01

i have read, reread and then had another go at reading this post etc.

I cannot helpit if you do not have the capacity to understand. I do notice you both have a predilection for mentioning substance abuse, in this case glue, which has never crossed my mind either to indulge in or while trying to support this OP and while reading this Forum.

I see in your approach an all too familiar trait of certain types who appear on MN and pick on somebody to bully. This becomes their chief reason for appearing on the website. They enjoy making up nasty comments and trying to distress someone. Your comments are mundanely similar to all narcissistic types who do this. You try to ridicule me, you tell lies and you take the thread completely away from the topic it was created for.

This is my final interaction with you. You are not worth trying to discuss anything with. You are only interested in hurting others, showing off and trying to make yourselves sound 'clever'. But in so doing you have achieved the opposite and revealed how nasty your character is as well.

You have no desire to help this OP and you have no concern about what is happening to our Junior Doctors. I have been horror-stricken at how bad life is for them. Despite knowing many, it was not until those writing here spelled it out so graphically that the full horror of the way they are bullied really hit me. We who are not in their profession should be doing all we can to support them in getting these terrible working conditions changed. To your shame you have shown no concern about this whatsoever.

ToeSucker · 05/01/2024 14:21

Itsdifferentnow · 05/01/2024 14:03

MuckyPlucky · Today 10:17

withthischoice · Today 09:01

i have read, reread and then had another go at reading this post etc.

I cannot helpit if you do not have the capacity to understand. I do notice you both have a predilection for mentioning substance abuse, in this case glue, which has never crossed my mind either to indulge in or while trying to support this OP and while reading this Forum.

I see in your approach an all too familiar trait of certain types who appear on MN and pick on somebody to bully. This becomes their chief reason for appearing on the website. They enjoy making up nasty comments and trying to distress someone. Your comments are mundanely similar to all narcissistic types who do this. You try to ridicule me, you tell lies and you take the thread completely away from the topic it was created for.

This is my final interaction with you. You are not worth trying to discuss anything with. You are only interested in hurting others, showing off and trying to make yourselves sound 'clever'. But in so doing you have achieved the opposite and revealed how nasty your character is as well.

You have no desire to help this OP and you have no concern about what is happening to our Junior Doctors. I have been horror-stricken at how bad life is for them. Despite knowing many, it was not until those writing here spelled it out so graphically that the full horror of the way they are bullied really hit me. We who are not in their profession should be doing all we can to support them in getting these terrible working conditions changed. To your shame you have shown no concern about this whatsoever.

If you want a better understanding, the General Medical Council are used as a threat to keep clinicians from complaining. I've worked in multiple industries, some of which have reputations for being toxic. None of them have politics as dirty as healthcare. If you so much as say you have concerns about patient safety, in a lot of places this triggers instant formal investigation of your practice, collecting statements from colleagues to support a very loaded constructive suspension or even dismissal or GMC referral. The GMC is a public execution ring. In recent years we've seen clinicians arrested for doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.

I applaud the current BMA. They are much stronger and more unified than before. But the tools that are used to keep doctors from complaining are very strong. People don't accept or believe this as doctors are generally seen as having high power and high status.