To be absolutely aghast after watching Mr Bates v the Post Office

[Vistada]

I binged all of this in one go, no spoilers (although the current state of play is easily findable...)

AIBU to be absolutely aghast that this happened, and happened for so long.
Absolutely dystopian!

Wow this is galling to read.

I FOUND THE THREAD Here is the attitude i got when i posted about SAP

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2978114-URGENT-Do-you-rent-from-a-HOUSING-ASSOCIATION-Do-you-claim-HB-Then-please-READ-THIS?page=3

People don't want to believe that systems and institutions are fundamentally flawed, they would rather believe that individuals are. I guess it makes them feel safer.

It's the same reason it has taken so long to get mainstream interest in the post office

And it's the same reason that people don't believe me and others when we try and raise the alarm about the very real problems (and misogyny) in the family court. Even though there are many credible journalists and barristers trying to tell the story too.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, it is tangentially relevant to my role so I shall at least try and raise awareness in my workplace

@forcedfun thankyou so much and i agree with ALL of your post. I felt so gaslighted when the HA were doing that Its nowhere near what the PO sub postmasters went through but it felt so abusive. And YY about the family courts. I have read posts about it on here and been disgusted and appalled.

Post Office were the first prosecuting agency in England. Long before the police they prosecuted highwaymen and criminals that targeted the post. They have had prosecuting authority for over 300 years. The radio 4 podcast is very informative 😀

But does that really now have a place in modern society? Particularly given that none of these prosecutions should have taken place?

No I think they have proved themselves to be untrustworthy and should not be able to prosecute their own employees. That seems like a conflict of interests to me. I just wanted to give the bit of history :)

The Post Office used SAP. Government agencies act like sheep - especially when procuring software so end up buying all sorts of unsuitable crap -

https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/21/post_office_sap_licences/

I can't imagine the fear and confusion those postmaster's must have felt when they were accused of theft, particularly those who ended up in the dock and prison.
Absolutely horrendous.
It's a small wonder that some of them took their own lives or ended up under psychiatric care.
Paula Vennels should be stripped of all her assets to help repay those postmaster's who have had their money stolen, yes stolen, by the PO, not just her gong.
The lying hypocrite has the nerve to don her cassock and stand preaching in church too! Lower than a snakes belly.

Whilst I agree Paula Vennells comes out of this extremely poorly, I think she is potentially being scapegoated.
She absolutely should be held to account but I don't believe for one moment there were not other very senior people at the post office who knew and turned a blind eye, and how on earth have Fujitsu/Horizon managed to escape scrutiny?

Same.

This is my big concern. It's not resolved by removing her CBE. There's a huge risk here that plenty of (probably more culpable) people getting away without proper scrutiny (Adam Crozier included - huge questions need to be asked about his influence on the dramatisation).

She's handing back her CBE!

Shame it took her so long and she had to be publicly shamed into it.

Whilst I welcome Vennells giving up her CBE, I do not like this trend of demanding that heads roll in order for "justice" to be served. I realise that this is incredibly emotive, and the most awful situation for the people involved, but rushing to conclusions seems to be what drove this awful miscarriage of justice in the first place.

As much as I have been dismayed by the COVID enquiry, and the tittle tattle from whatsapp groups, I think a full independent public enquiry is needed here to establish what went wrong. Unfortunately, I feel that our courts and judges presiding over the cases that saw postmasters being criminally convicted should be part of that, given the apparent suspension of the principle of presumption of innocence.

Once we have an enquiry, we can establish whether any negligence or foul play was willful and/or criminal and whether prosecutions are warranted. If they are, I hope they are pursued.

This is wrong.

She shouldn't be allowed to hand it back, she should be properly stripped of it.

Sometimes though, heads actually must roll.

People lost their savings, livelihood, had to start from scratch, committed suicide or went to prison! When they had done nothing wrong!

PV sanctioned the strong arm approach of prosecuting PMs, Will Mellor's illustrated case in general.

She sanctioned the laughable mediation process,

She sanctioned the deliberate obstruction of information.

She sanctioned the attempt to recuse the judge to knacker the trial.

She did not act honourably.

She had no handle on what was going on in a business she ran if the select committee answers are to be believed.

For better or worse our honour system is - in principle - there to give accolades to people who excel in their field. (Whether it does or not is a separate debate)

If her head was good enough to crown when it was believed she was doing a good job, it is good enough to roll now that it transpires she was doing anything but.

Vennells lied to a Select Committee and covered up the wrongdoing @Everanewbie. In what world should someone who did that be honoured for Services to the Post Office?

Agreed. At the moment it feels like trial by TV drama
A TV drama commissioned by ITV under Adam Crozier's influence.

A huge investigation is needed, and urgent reparation to the postmaster's whose lives were ruined. But let's not over simplify the factors that led to this by putting it all on one woman's shoulders.

And not only has no-one at Fujistu ever been held accountable in any way, the company has won over 150 government contracts since the PO stopped prosecuting its staff over the Horizon software 'discrepancies'- and typically receives over £100 million in contracts per year and has made billions in the past decade.
It's all absolutely sickening..

I don't think anyone is disputing the removal of her honour. Just pointing out that noone should be satisfied that this is justice.

There are lots of other culpable people. Crozier, other post office execs and board members, many at Fujitsu....

@Everanewbie well said.

Sadly we live in an age of adversarial politics and compensation culture. We don’t accept mistakes happen and this drives the coverup behaviour.

I know this is controversial but Hillsborough was due to human error. The crime was the coverup. Had the police been honest and apologised from the start it would have saved a lot of heartache and £££. The belated prosecution was never going to succeed. I may not always agree with him but Andy Burnham stood up to be counted when he listened to the crowd at the memorial service.

I think the fact the CBE was only awarded in 2019 for services to Post Office it is reasonable for her to hand it back. As pp on another thread said I think someone has a quiet word to say better to give it back than be stripped of the honour. Alan Bates deserves his OBE.

The most important thing is that people in charge learn lessons from this.

It never fails to amaze me how some users here will tie themselves in knots to avoid saying a woman is at fault

Also - lets not over dramatise.

She's not going to prison, she's not been fined, she's not been prosecuted, she's not even being made to make a public apology.

She's handing back a gong - I'm sure she'll live.

But let's not over simplify the factors that led to this by putting it all on one woman's shoulders.

She was the chief executive. The buck stopped on her desk.

I think she is at fault and I think its right that she has given in her CBE. However I'm unsure why she's been singled out. The sheer scale of the problem suggests many many people were involved in a lesser or greater capacity.
(In the same way during partygate, Allegra Stratton was named and took the public fall when she was in a room full of anonymous men other people all laughing and agreeing with her)
And it beggars belief that no one at all seems to have been named or brought to account at Fujitsu or Horizon. As @AuraBora says they've done pretty well out of it, how has that been conveniently glossed over??