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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be absolutely aghast after watching Mr Bates v the Post Office

297 replies

Vistada · 02/01/2024 18:18

I binged all of this in one go, no spoilers (although the current state of play is easily findable...)

AIBU to be absolutely aghast that this happened, and happened for so long.
Absolutely dystopian!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Grandmasswag · 08/01/2024 17:36

enchantedsquirrelwood · 08/01/2024 17:33

No, they have private prosecution powers.

As does the RSPCA, which has also come under fire for some of its prosecutions, although nothing on this scale, obviously.

Personally I think all cases should have to go via the CPS to stop this sort of abuse and cosiness.

You do have to wonder about the external barristers who were involved in these cases though and why they didn't raise issues. They must have realised there were worrying patterns as time went on.

Good grief. I had completely missed/forgotten this part. It’s been a while since I listened to the radio 4 podcast. This just seems completely bonkers!

KingsleyBorder · 08/01/2024 17:38

enchantedsquirrelwood · 08/01/2024 17:32

convicted didn’t get together to raise the alarm. It was a huge volume of convictions but surely those defending would have looked at the other cases when assessing the strength of their own? Does anyone have any insight into that eg from the podcast

I don't get the impression some of the defence lawyers did a very good job, but in their defence the early cases were before the internet and social media were really a thing, and so they didn't know their cases weren't unique. And probably didn't have the capacity or resources to demand evidence from the PO, which is still refusing to give it to the Inquiry! Later on, once Computer Weekly got the story and Alan Bates started his website, it should have been easier to find this stuff out.

Not true. Case reports have been available online since well before this scandal! And it is literally the lawyer’s job to research other relevant cases.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 08/01/2024 17:44

freshstartfor2024 · 08/01/2024 12:25

İ don't understand how anyone at the post office could have thought that 750 postmasters were all simultaneously coincidentally stealing from one organisation within the same time period. That just doesn't happen.

I've been involved in two major IT system changes (as back office who had to make them work day to day). My observation with both was that management are so utterly committed, both financially and reputationally, to systems that they've been assured are all singing and all dancing, will solve all their problems and make them look so good with head office that they can't or won't admit that there's any problems. One MD who said 'I don't want to hear about any problems with this new system, make it work.' To which my FD's response was 'OK, we won't tell him about the problems, we'll work round him.' The thinking is this wonderful new system can't be at fault, can it? so it must be the users.

What's appalling is not just what appears to be institutional ongoing corruption and fraud from top to bottom in the PO, but there was no-one who dared say 'Hang on, seven hundred people have suddenly gone rogue? how likely is that?' and were most likely too scared to.

As for Ed Davey and his 'been assured the system can't be accessed remotely' - I don't work in IT and even I know that's bollocks.

Tootytoot78 · 08/01/2024 17:53

Adam Crozier was CEO of the Royal Mail Group at the time this travesty was happening. No mention was made of him in the tv drama, but it may have something to do with the fact that when he left Royal Mail in 2010 he became chief exec of ITV Studios.
ITV Studios is the production company behind Mr Bates vs The Post Office...........
It all stinks.

clarepetal · 08/01/2024 17:55

Think this is bad. Have you heard of The Contaminated Blood?

forcedfun · 08/01/2024 18:34

KingsleyBorder · 08/01/2024 17:38

Not true. Case reports have been available online since well before this scandal! And it is literally the lawyer’s job to research other relevant cases.

While I dont disagree about the role or a lawyer, legal aid had been thoroughly slashed by the early 2000s and as a consequence it's not surprising many people ended up with third rate legal representation. Noone cared when the budget was cut though because they believed all the headlines about fat cat lawyers.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/01/2024 18:40

Vroomfondleswaistcoat · 08/01/2024 17:36

I'm not sure I can watch this. I started following this story some years ago and the sheer impotence of the poor people being accused just brings on acute anxiety in me. Issues were raised YEARS before it all blew up but everyone on the ground was ignored in favour of computer software people who were telling everything that it was all ok, and any anomalies must be human error (ie theft). And people were SCREAMING that it wasn't theft, it was computer problems, and not being listened to, because it was easier to blame the postmasters than the expensive new software.

Argh, it makes me angry just thinking about it. Those poor, poor people. Incidentally, a very good friend of mine is a postman, and I'm not sure that the PO is going to last much longer if some of his stories are to be believed....

a very good friend of mine is a postman, and I'm not sure that the PO is going to last much longer if some of his stories are to be believed..

I'm sure he's right, but that's Royal Mail, which is separate from Post Office Counters Ltd or whatever it's now called. Royal Mail was privatised, PO is still publicly owned.

Vroomfondleswaistcoat · 08/01/2024 18:42

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/01/2024 18:40

a very good friend of mine is a postman, and I'm not sure that the PO is going to last much longer if some of his stories are to be believed..

I'm sure he's right, but that's Royal Mail, which is separate from Post Office Counters Ltd or whatever it's now called. Royal Mail was privatised, PO is still publicly owned.

You're absolutely right - my brain just lumps them all together these days!

newnamethanks · 08/01/2024 18:51

The majority, if not all, of those who came out the other side of a court case will have been persuaded - in a similar manner to 'plead guilty, it'll make it easier for you ' to sign non-disclosure agreements. I expect many still believe they are legally bound by these dodgy bits of paper.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/01/2024 18:52

It's a ridiculous situation. Postal deliveries are an essential public service, but they've been privatised. Sub post offices don't do have anything like as many responsibilities as they did, but they're still government-owned/funded.

Fizbosshoes · 08/01/2024 20:00

We watched the first 2 episodes yesterday and it's uncomfortable viewing. I had seen pieces about it in the news but it's not made anywhere near the headlines that it seems it should. (Totally not minimising or condoning any of their actions but when you look at the days/weeks of headlines about Phillip schofield or Russell Brand, this feels like its been conveniently sidelined)

I think watching a drama actually makes us sit up and realise the individual.cases and the enormity and how damaging it was, in a way that reading a couple of paragraphs in a newspaper doesn't convey. And 20k compensation feels pretty pitiful.

Lancrelady80 · 08/01/2024 20:20

"Adam Crozier worked for Royal Mail, not the Post Office. They’re two separate organisations."

Adam Crozier was CEO of Royal Mail Group between 2003 and 2010, when the Post Office was part of it.

Royal Mail and the Post Office separated in 2012. So much so that PO have made deals with DPD and Evri to handle parcel deliveries for them, rather than RM.

BIossomtoes · 08/01/2024 20:29

Lancrelady80 · 08/01/2024 20:20

"Adam Crozier worked for Royal Mail, not the Post Office. They’re two separate organisations."

Adam Crozier was CEO of Royal Mail Group between 2003 and 2010, when the Post Office was part of it.

Royal Mail and the Post Office separated in 2012. So much so that PO have made deals with DPD and Evri to handle parcel deliveries for them, rather than RM.

Thank you. I’ve already acknowledged and apologised for my error.

Lancrelady80 · 08/01/2024 20:31

Sorry, hadn't read full thread.

MushMonster · 08/01/2024 20:38

I just learnt that this had happened today. It is beyond shocking! These poor people. You cannot make this staff up

MushMonster · 08/01/2024 20:41

clarepetal · 08/01/2024 17:55

Think this is bad. Have you heard of The Contaminated Blood?

What is this one about? Not sure I really want to know....

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/01/2024 21:06

The failure to screen blood donations imported from the US in the 1980s. It led to boys and men with haemophilia getting HIV and hepatitis, which in many cases proved fatal. It took decades for them to get compensation. Another shocking failure to take responsibility and sort it out.

forcedfun · 08/01/2024 21:18

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/01/2024 21:06

The failure to screen blood donations imported from the US in the 1980s. It led to boys and men with haemophilia getting HIV and hepatitis, which in many cases proved fatal. It took decades for them to get compensation. Another shocking failure to take responsibility and sort it out.

Agreed its another utterly awful tragedy.

newnamethanks · 08/01/2024 21:24

Thalidomide. Hillsborough. Stephen Lawrence. Daniel Morgan. Infected Blood. Mad Cow Disease. All examples of the Establishment lying to cover up errors and inertia. Plenty more. Keep calling this out until there's a result.

KingsleyBorder · 08/01/2024 22:18

MushMonster · 08/01/2024 20:38

I just learnt that this had happened today. It is beyond shocking! These poor people. You cannot make this staff up

Welcome out from under your rock. The Queen is dead, Boris Johnson used to be Prime Minister and Jimmy Savile is not the cuddly TV presenter he made himself out to be.

MushMonster · 08/01/2024 22:35

Lol I did know about the other events!
Just not about the Horizon and convictions on innocent people.
And neither about the imported blood, untested.
It has to be rather easy to spot a software failure of this scale. It is beyond shocking!

QueenBitch666 · 08/01/2024 22:46

I can't watch it 😓

Jadebanditchillipepper · 08/01/2024 22:53

I think it's outrageous that the Post office are able to bring their own prosecutions - if these cases had gone through the CPS, none of them would have ever got to court because there was never a shred of evidence that the individual sub postmasters had committed theft. Also, if they had gone through the CPS then someone may have noticed that there were a much higher than usual number of cases of suspected theft.

Instead, several post masters were bullied into pleading guilty to falsifying accounts - and most of those had done it because the so called Horizon "Helpline" had told them to.

The whole thing is just awful. These people are own millions of pounds in compensation for what they went through.

Heads in the Post office/Royal Mail, Fujitsu and the Government should roll

JenniferBooth · 08/01/2024 23:02

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain Apologies if you have already seen this.

I find it frightening that we live in an age where a computer can be believed over a human being. I have another good example.

From a review from a HA employee Taken from glass door

"OneSanctuary SAP is the name of a multi-million pound software system brought in by Sanctuary in 2016, designed for use by all areas of the business. It has been an unmitigated failure, and is a huge drawback of working for this company.
The issues caused by SAP are staggering and difficult to keep track of. Because SHA tried to implement SAP in a cost effective manner, they ended up vastly under-investing in critical elements. There is no tailoring of the generically presented system ('vanilla SAP'), which is an issue as social housing is a unique environment from a service delivery and CRM perspective, whereas vanilla SAP is more geared towards providing a solution for manufacturing industries. Thus, the system uses corporate nonsensical buzzwords and methods of handling accounts which absolutely do not reflect industry practice.
Here are just some examples of the more specific issues faced by staff:
No rent statements have been issued since it was implemented in August 2016, and if a resident insists on a rent statement it has to be prepared manually in a spreadsheet.
The rent and calculations for accounts are hard to use, and often completely wrong. Mostly because the system was never designed to understand housing benefit payments, and this has a very convoluted workaround which a computer cannot make sense of.
SAP cannot interface with Local Authorities Housing benefit systems so payments are missed, lost or misattributed
Direct debits do not work reliably, and for a long time following the implementation did not work at all. Front line staff are now preferring standing order.
The front end system of SAP requires far more testing and money spent on it. Each customer account is a total mess of information, with no discernible way to separate notes left between differing departments, with information left by staff often going into the wrong account entirely. This needs looking at as from a compliance (DPA) point of view the breaches are serious.
From a usability point of view, the view of a customers account within SAP CIC does not display appropriate information to the user (as stated before this is likely because the system was never designed to be used by a HA) and the user often has to go trawling around back end systems to find obviously relevant data (e.g tenancy start date, account balance, property type etc). This is a seemingly minor but considerable waste of resources"

Even AFTER i posted this originally a few years ago i had the SH haters on here screaming PAY YOUR RENT at me when it had already been paid, So plenty on here believe computers over humans