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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

810 replies

5foot5 · 01/01/2024 22:27

There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

MR BATES VS THE POST OFFICE - mon to thur ITV 9pm - tv pace no spoilers | Mumsnet

Mon to thur  Mr Bates vs The Post Office is an ITV drama based on a true story of injustice starring Toby Jones, Julie Hesmondhalgh, WIll Mello...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
61
nauticant · 03/05/2024 09:59

Would you like to have a bigger headache? If so, watch the confusing world of Jarnail Singh.

I'm wondering whether today will finally see Jason Beer KC lose his patience.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2024 10:20

I'm taking refuge in staring at Mr Beer's soothing tie.

nauticant · 03/05/2024 10:28

Are you saying that we should just watch that on loop instead?

I'd not noticed the tie, yes, it is splendid. But poor Mr Beer, doing this arduous task with a rotten cold.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2024 10:54

Well, the content is the same, but the tune is better...

HomelessAngua · 03/05/2024 11:14

Does he not listen to himself?

SparksFlyUpward · 03/05/2024 13:35

This witness is clear, concise and articulate in his contemporaneous emails. Brutally clear. Ten years later on the stand he dithers, can't remember, can't follow the question, says the same incoherent waffle over and over again. Flat out denies what is written in front of him in black and white. To the point that I was starting to wonder if he was trying to avoid facing the music by suggesting some sort of cognitive decline.

And then Mr Beer said ah, your answer is two questions in front of me, Mr Singh. I'm not there yet, but you're thinking ahead aren't you Mr Singh.

Shameless.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2024 13:46

Yes absolutely. You can see he's quick enough in areas he's comfortable with. Then his speech sloowsss riiigghhtt doowwnnnn for bits where he's worried. I think we're basically getting the "please hold" music while he tries to work out the safest thing to say.

Well, that and the fact the safest thing to say is nothing at all, in as many words as possible...

And when he's really bang up against it, he can't understand the question.Hmm

BarrelOfOtters · 03/05/2024 14:00

It's so blatant that they are lying to the inquiry.

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2024 14:36

Yip.

nauticant · 03/05/2024 14:44

Did anyone pick up Singh implying that he and others wouldn't have wanted to tackle John Scott, head of security, because they were afraid of him, together with the implication that part of that was him being an ex-policeman?

Quirkyme · 03/05/2024 14:54

"Tell us which way the words need to be rearranged in order to give it alternative meaning" 🤣🤣🤣🤣

These lines!

PerkingFaintly · 03/05/2024 15:29

Didn't really get why Singh was flapping about Scott being a policeman.

I felt Singh was trying to tell a story of him being shocked – shocked! – to receive an instruction to shred material. The whole, "And it was from the Head of Security! And he's an ex-Policeman!" bit added drama, but I couldn't work out in which direction.

He's head of security... so he should have known better?

He's head of security... so we're obviously in serious jeopardy and it's not just business as usual?

Meh. Tedious lying twerp.

nauticant · 03/05/2024 15:46

I remember hearing long ago, before anything of this happened, that the Post Office security people were to be avoided at all costs because if they got you in their sights they would ruin you.

SparksFlyUpward · 03/05/2024 16:48

I wasn't able to listen in this afternoon. Did they finish with Singh? This morning's evidence is up on the PO website. Does anyone know how long it's likely to take for this afternoon to appear? I've got some angry housework to do.

nauticant · 03/05/2024 17:20

Yes, Singh was finished today. If you're talking about the Inquiry's youtube channel, this afternoon's session is up and ready to be streamed.

rufjustiss · 04/05/2024 01:34

I've not been keeping up with the inquiry but had a binge today.
I was reminded of an aunt who had little schooling but was very sharp. She had a little business selling flowers from her house and plenty of regular customers. A family member stole cash from the tin she kept her money in.
She told me that when she accused the culprit of stealing from her, the person laughed it off and told her she was imagining things.
"If someone accused me of something I didn't do, I wouldn't laugh it off, I'd go berserk" she told me.
A lot of witnesses who supposedly value their reputation suddenly seem very laid back about being publicly called a liar.

nauticant · 10/05/2024 09:45

A couple of interesting days of evidence. On Wednesday was Brian Altman KC. He's a top barrister, and clearly very capable. However, it looks like he was chosen because of his political skills and because he had been First Senior Treasury Counsel meaning that he knew which doors to knock on and knew that when he knocked they'd be opened. But he also grasped what the Post Office wanted and he didn't disappoint, working to keep a lid on the scandal and to withhold from subpostmasters information relevant to the miscarriages of justice they'd undergone.

A clever man who spent all of his time being cross-examined reinventing the narrative of what went on to show himself as having acted correctly, when sometimes he hadn't. Came across as a snake who, for all of his cleverness, was used as a tool by people far less capable than him, perhaps because it was another situation were he was able to be "the big I am". Along with getting wheelbarrows full of cash.

nauticant · 10/05/2024 09:45

To me the more significant witness was Simon Clarke. He was a barrister employed by Cartwright King. He was at the centre of so much that, as a witness, he was highly anticipated. Overall, he was a joining the dots witness. Contrary to Altman, he was often able to give straightforward evidence that didn't need so much moulding of the narrative. But his testimony was very much of two parts, the terrific part and the dodgy part.

It was Clarke who realised that Fujitu knew that there were bugs in Horizon and it was their employee, Gareth Jenkins, who had stated the opposite to secure convictions of subpostmasters. Unlike many others, Clarke took responsibility, wrote this knowledge up as advice, lit the fuse, and threw it into the Post Office blowing the scandal wide open, at least inside the Post Office and for its lawyers and adviors. So Clarke played a key role in enabling the scandal to be uncovered.

But then, for unclear reasons, he made subsequent bad mis-steps. He advised the Post Office to withhold from some subpostmasters information relevant to the miscarriages of justice they'd undergone. But strangely this was only in relation to legacy Horizon, and not the upgrade Horizon Online. It was like he was willing to make sure the Post Office did things right for the recent past, the "current day", and the future, but for the old stuff, like the Seema Misra case, it was best to let sleeping dogs lie.

He also lobbied hard to prevent convicted subpostmasters from being permitted into the mediation scheme to seek redress. Much of what he said yesterday made sense, that it was wrong to send them down this route when it would be inadequate and go nowhere near engaging with the hell they'd gone through, and that they really needed to go down the Court of Appeal route, but this story, although it made sense and fitted with what had gone on, didn't quite add up, and also had vibes of cover-up in it. Maybe a belief that the Court of Appeal route would be so difficult that perhaps few or even no subpostmasters would succeed going down this route and as a result those sleeping dogs could also rest undisturbed.

A disappointing story. Clarke could easily have emerged from this a hero but came across as someone who is a bit of an operator who will fix things but only to a degree that fits in with his agenda.

Interestingly, he also said the senior people in the Post Office were afraid of John Scott, the Head of Security. That confirms what a Post Office insider had said to the Inquiry a week or so back.

nauticant · 10/05/2024 09:56

Actually, having written that, I'd say that a striking difference between the two barristers is that Altman is the one who through his enormous vanity is more easily manipulated, for all of his cleverness and capabilities.

PerkingFaintly · 10/05/2024 10:55

Thank you for that, nauticant. I've been unable to watch this week, so really appreciate your reporting.

HomelessAngua · 10/05/2024 12:33

Adding my thanks too. Interesting piece in Private Eye this week linked to Post Office about Robin Garbutt jailed for killing his wife, a robbery staged to cover for stealing from PO, shocking case.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 10/05/2024 12:57

Interestingly, he also said the senior people in the Post Office were afraid of John Scott, the Head of Security. That confirms what a Post Office insider had said to the Inquiry a week or so back

Interesting. Back in the day I worked for a company which had been a public body, and there was a guy like this who everyone tiptoed around. He was sacked in the end, but it took a long time.

It does strike me though that this is just an extreme example of public body/ex public body arrogance. You see this from public bodies generally. Look at the rail companies and how they treat passengers. They assume a perspective of "everyone's a thief". So did the Post Office with the subpostmasters and so did the old colleague of mine mentioned above. At the time I was bolshy and as a lawyer was more easily able to call out his antics, but it didn't change anything at the time.

There is a culture running through organisations that everyone is a thief/criminal element at best and a pain in the arse at worst. And it leads to this.

prh47bridge · 10/05/2024 16:15

I haven't been able to watch the evidence this week, but the impression I get from reading reports is that Post Office managed to convince at least some lawyers that Horizon Online and legacy Horizon were different beasts, and that bugs in Horizon Online did not mean the same issues existed in legacy Horizon or, alternatively, that legacy Horizon was no longer available for testing. Having said that, I am surprised at how unquestioning some of the external lawyers were. It seems to me that some of them forgot that they are officers of the court, and that this comes before everything else.

nauticant · 10/05/2024 17:38

The pre-2013 reasoning went:
legacy Horizon: unknown quantity
Horizon Online: unknown quantity but it is vital to the future of the Post Office for everyone to believe it's robust.

Then in 2013: "O.M.G! There are bugs in Horizon Online. However, there is no evidence of bugs in legacy Horizon so we'll adopt a stance that it was fine."

I think that a fundamental part of the problem was that legacy Horizon had stopped to exist in a meaningful sense many years ago and so it was too complicated to think about. Therefore, some took the disastrous shortcut that there were probably no problems. (Which was code for an expectation that if problems did exist, they'd probably remain undiscovered so why open that can of worms?)

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