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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

810 replies

5foot5 · 01/01/2024 22:27

There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

MR BATES VS THE POST OFFICE - mon to thur ITV 9pm - tv pace no spoilers | Mumsnet

Mon to thur  Mr Bates vs The Post Office is an ITV drama based on a true story of injustice starring Toby Jones, Julie Hesmondhalgh, WIll Mello...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
61
ZeViteVitchofCwismas · 12/01/2024 07:44

Even then there must be some checks and balances and rigours to test the strength of a case??

Without horizon how many other miscarriage of justice just due to this internal system??

TheLogicalSong · 12/01/2024 07:59

ZeViteVitchofCwismas · 12/01/2024 07:44

Even then there must be some checks and balances and rigours to test the strength of a case??

Without horizon how many other miscarriage of justice just due to this internal system??

The system relied on those checks and balances being undertaken within the Post Office and as we have seen, they were not.

The PO cared only about protecting the reputation of Horizon - they wanted the Subpostmasters to carry on 'making good' the losses and bolstering their profits; and they were working from a perspective that all spms were 'on the fiddle'. If they had publicly admitted Horizon was unreliable, they probably imagined spms would take advantage of that by stealing money and blaming it on the computer. There was no trust at all.

In my opinion, there are almost certainly other non-Horizon related miscarriages of justice that haven't come to light, based on the way the PO was abusing its ability to go straight to court.

Anisette · 12/01/2024 08:11

Interesting article here about the Post Office's attempts to stop a Panorama programme showing that they knew sub postmasters' computers could be remotely accessed by them and Fujitsu but denied it hotly - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

The wording of Paula Vennells' recent statement is interesting - "I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system." She noticeably refrains from accepting any personal responsibility, and it very much brings to mind the quote from Douglas in Cabin Pressure, "Masterly use of the passive voice".

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 10:34

Yes, Paula Vennells' Passive Voice sprang out to me, too.

Aglets · 12/01/2024 10:57

ItsBeenRaining · 11/01/2024 23:30

Has anyone even asked the question whether this could be intentional.

They charged innocent people with fraud and the excuse is that it was errors in the system.

What if it wasn't, it is just as possible that these physical changes in the system were intentional, fraud, to make profits. And who would profit from these 'accidental errors'.

Now that doesn't bare thinking about.

I don't know if it was intentional but found it interesting that some of those who had small problems or tried to alert that there may be a problem then had bigger and bigger losses until they were suspended and prosecuted.

TheLogicalSong · 12/01/2024 12:24

Aglets · 12/01/2024 10:57

I don't know if it was intentional but found it interesting that some of those who had small problems or tried to alert that there may be a problem then had bigger and bigger losses until they were suspended and prosecuted.

The system was so unstable that it could equally well have been Fujitsu's bungling attempts to correct those particular problems. It reads as though (and this is just an impression, I have no technical expertise) some of the branch systems got into a loop where data from one counter wasn't being updated to the other(s) and vice versa, and every time an update was attempted, the 'loss' would double as it was being written back and forth.

The Fujitsu Helpdesk's line (and again, we don't know if this is true) is that they knew the system was unstable and riddled with errors but they didn't know PMs were being prosecuted on the strength of it. Since the PO were not even requesting system data for prosecutions, it could be argued that makes sense at the lower to middle level of Fujitsu staff.

Lalgarh · 12/01/2024 13:44

The Fujitsu Helpdesk's line (and again, we don't know if this is true) is that they knew the system was unstable and riddled with errors but they didn't know PMs were being prosecuted on the strength of it. Since the PO were not even requesting system data

I'm wondering if that "calls are recorded for training and quality purposes" adage might apply...

ItsBeenRaining · 12/01/2024 14:09

The PO cared only about protecting the reputation of Horizon - they
wanted the Subpostmasters to carry on 'making good' the losses and
bolstering their profits; and they were working from a perspective that
all spms were 'on the fiddle'. If they had publicly admitted Horizon
was unreliable, they probably imagined spms would take advantage of that
by stealing money and blaming it on the computer. There was no trust
at all.

I think it was mutually beneficial to cover and help one another regarding the PO and Horizon.

I agree that they believed all SPM's were on the fiddle, I'm sure the government believe that of all self employed people too, small buisnesses that have struggeled to get by and make a profit and have folded. That's why there are no shops and smaller buisnesses, only if you are corperate, huge and have links to power.

Our high streets are, Costa's, Starbucks, Betting shops, Charity shops and Boots. There's nothing left anymore.

Lalgarh · 12/01/2024 14:43

The Horizon system was also originally intended for use by DWP for monitoring benefits claims.

It got shoved onto post office after it went t*ts up with £700m spent

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/post-office-horizon-software-originally-aimed-at-claimants

And if Fujitsu staff could access it, how easy is it for an Actual Hacker from Anonymous or some state like North Korea etc?

Post Office Horizon software originally aimed at claimants

Get the benefits you're entitled to: help with personal independence payment (PIP), universal credit (UC), employment and support allowance (ESA),disability living allowance (DLA). Claims, assessments, reviews, appeals.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/post-office-horizon-software-originally-aimed-at-claimants

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 14:59

The origin of the Horizon system was actually a belief that benefit claimants were on the fiddle – though I'm sure the PO was happy enough to believe the SPMs were too.

The ideological belief that any of the UK's ills can be laid at the feet of benefit claimants seems to be perennial.

So in 1992, Peter Lilley regaled the 1992 Tory conference with his benefit-bashing song:
"I've got a little list
Of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting out
And who never would be missed
They never would be missed

There's those who make up bogus claims
In half a dozen names
And councillors who draw the dole
To run left-wing campaigns
They never would be missed
They never would be missed

Young ladies who get pregnant just to jump the housing list
And dads who won't support the kids of ladies they have ... kissed
And I haven't even mentioned all those sponging socialists
I've got them on my list
And there's none of them be missed
There's none of them be missed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/6967366.stm

And in the 1995 conference he announced the Pathway project to computerise benefit payments at the Post Office, which emerged as the Horizon software.

By 1999 the whole project was already known to be an IT shambles:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/icl-stumbles-on-pathway-to-hell-1092947.html

NB It's worrying to note that, just a few weeks ago, we had the announcement of another mega IT project involving technology which provides no transparency to the accused, and with potentially serious impacts on entirely honest people.

This time it's the DWP using artificial intelligence to surveil the bank accounts of everyone receiving benefits, whether there's any case against them or not.

DWP to surveil bank accounts of benefit claimants for fraud
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366560856/DWP-to-surveil-bank-accounts-of-benefit-claimants-for-fraud

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/03/uk-warned-over-lack-transparency-use-ai-vet-welfare-claims
Ministers have maintained a veil of secrecy over the system, which the transparency campaign group Big Brother Watch has described as “seriously concerning”. The DWP has refused freedom of information requests and blocked MPs’ questions, arguing that providing information could help fraudsters.

Even the FT is unimpressed with this new government IT project:

UK move to curb benefit fraud triggers privacy concerns
https://www.ft.com/content/31f548bb-e0d6-4167-9c09-ce4f4d590386

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Daily Politics | Your favourite Conference Clips

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/6967366.stm

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 15:06

As with what's emerging about Horizon, accountants can already see the problems and are aghast. See Richard Murphy's blog post:

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/government-seeks-to-view-claimants-bank-accounts#:~:text=Data%20collection%20could%20start%20from,thinks%20this%20an%20easy%20exercise.

There was almost no Parliamentary time allocated to discuss any of that proposed legislation, but included in it, starting at page 98, was a provision that impacts every practicing accountant and many of their clients quite significantly.

On that page a new clause 121DB was added to the Social Security Administration Act 1992, saying: “Schedule 3B makes provision about a power for the Secretary of State to obtain account information.”
If passed (and that is not certain, as the Lords are likely to have a great deal to say about this, if given the chance) the new Schedule 3B empowers the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who administers social security, to compel banks to provide any data that the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) demands so that it might search for fraud and error on the part of benefit claimants.

Crucially, this is not an investigative power taken so that fraud might be pursued when there is reasonable belief and prior evidence that it might be taking place. Instead, this is a general power, permitting the DWP, which now administers benefit payments, to request that banks that receive such payments provide information on the bank accounts of all benefit recipients on a regular and recurring basis.

State pensioners included
It was suggested at first that the power would be used to demand information on the bank accounts of universal credit, pension credit and employment and support allowance claimants. That is approximately 8.8m people. But then Stephen Timms, a veteran Labour MP, realised that the power extended to everyone in receipt of a state pension as well, and raised the issue in the Commons.

That extends the right to collect data to another 11m or so people (having allowed for those already claiming pension credit). Other benefits are also covered. Child benefit, widely claimed by the clients of many accountants, could be on that list.

Extraordinarily, most of these covered by the new provision will be in receipt of benefits that are not earnings-related when it comes to determining entitlement. Given that many disability benefits also seem to be covered, many are also not linked to savings. Well over 10m people will have their bank account details sent to the government under this legislation on a regular basis, even though the data supplied cannot in any way impact their entitlement to the benefit that they are paid.

Government seeks to view claimants’ bank accounts

Accountants don’t usually have reason to get very excited about data protection bills presented to the House of Commons. When they become law we

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/government-seeks-to-view-claimants-bank-accounts#:~:text=Data%20collection%20could%20start%20from,thinks%20this%20an%20easy%20exercise.

Rummikub · 12/01/2024 15:11

Shocking that the govt have blocked requests for info about the new proposals. And v interesting that Horizon was developed for benefit claimants. assumed to be on the fiddle.
maybe they should use it for MP expenses..

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 17:52

A couple more features spring out from that 1999 Independent article about the ICL-Fujitsu-Pathway-Horizon-Post Office disaster already well underway at that date.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/icl-stumbles-on-pathway-to-hell-1092947.html

One is that the assumption in 1999 was that PFI projects like Pathway-Horizon transferred risk from the public to the private sector. But it was already clear this just wasn't true, because as (Fujitsu-owned) ICL's costs mounted, the company held the govt to ransom by demanding higher "toll" payments.

Another is that even in May 1999, the Post Office and ICL (Fujitsu) were publicly praising the system to the skies, despite all evidence to the contrary. As the article says:

John Roberts, chief executive of the Post Office, said: "This is a key project and one that we want to see go ahead. The system works and our staff like it.[...]"
[...]
John Bennett, managing director of ICL Pathway, is adamant that the system will operate satisfactorily. "We have had the system independently audited and it was best in the class of any commercial system. In fact, it is probably achieving military standards of security," he said.

All the while the project has hung in the balance, ICL has remained remarkably confident about its future. Even now, as the storm clouds gather, it remains extraordinarily relaxed. "We are looking forward to the outcome of the review positively," says the spokeswoman. "There is no chance of the project being canned. Postmasters love it, the customer loves it. Why would anyone want to axe a project which is so successful?"

ICL stumbles on Pathway to hell

News Analysis: The pounds 1.5bn scheme to computerise benefit payments may be IT's most expensive flop

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/icl-stumbles-on-pathway-to-hell-1092947.html

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 17:56

Whereas this is the evidence submitted to the current inquiry (October 2022):

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/POH%2011%20October%202022.pdf

However, in a briefing from the Treasury to the Prime Minister's office, dated
23 April 1999, there can be found a document entitled "ICL Pathway: list of failures", in which the following is recorded.
[...]
So "ICL Pathway: list of failures", this a briefing from the Treasury to the Prime Minister:
"Independent reviews of the Horizon project by external IT experts have all concluded (most recently this week) that ICL Pathway have failed and are failing to meet good industry practice in taking this project forward, both in their software development work and in their management of the process.
"To date in the development stages of the project: "All planned release dates have been missed, including the key contractual milestone for completion of the operational trial, which ICL Pathway were placed in breach in November 1997 ..."
[...]
"Every release has been subject to reductions in the originally plant functionality."
Next bullet point:
"And even when each release has gone live, there have been faults and problems which have resulted in the need for Pathway to reimburse DSS."
Next bullet point:
"In the current trials, the known problems have risen from 46 in November 1998 to 139 at the end of March 1999; and currently 146 have not been resolved."

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/POH%2011%20October%202022.pdf

Rummikub · 12/01/2024 18:25

In the panorama prog it said that Fujitsu’s bid was considered one of the lower ones (7th out of 9) but it was cheapest.

PerkingFaintly · 12/01/2024 18:37

And another point. That Independent article is dated 10 May 1999. It quotes the Post Office and ICL (Fujitsu) saying "our staff like it" and "Postmasters love it".

But according to p131 of the Oct 2022 inquiry doc I quoted above ( https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/POH%2011%20October%202022.pdf ):
Post Office Counters and ICL Pathway [entered] an operational live trial of the Horizon System in late May 1999.

So Horizon wasn't in use even by the small trial group of Postmasters at the time the companies were claiming this.

When it did go into use for a live trial for 11 weeks, with a few hundred users (pp134-135), this was the outcome:

Post Office Counters prepared a hot list, as it was called, of all medium and high severity acceptance incidents observed during the core observation period.
^^
We can see from POL0028355 that as of 13 August 1999 the hot list comprised of three acceptance incidents assessed by Post Office to be of high severity, one acceptance incident assessed by Post Office Counters to be of medium to high severity, and 11 acceptance incidents assessed by Post Office Counters to be of medium severity.

One of the incidents is described on pp135-136:

Post Office Counters' analysis of the data fed into TIP revealed a discrepancy between the volume of transactions recorded by EPOSS at the counter and the branch's weekly cash account, ie the aggregate of the weekly transactions produced by EPOSS. According to Post Office Counters the existence of this discrepancy had only come to light as a result of a temporary function performed by TIP by which it derived a cash account from the transaction data, which had extracted from EPOSS, and compared this to the cash account which had been produced by Horizon.

The Post Office assessed the business impact of this deficiency to be severe.

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/POH%2011%20October%202022.pdf

FrancisSeaton · 12/01/2024 22:06

Might of missed it so I do apologise but is it still the case the post office carry out their own criminal investigations rather than involve the police and how on earth was that ever seen as fair?

prh47bridge · 13/01/2024 00:33

FrancisSeaton · 12/01/2024 22:06

Might of missed it so I do apologise but is it still the case the post office carry out their own criminal investigations rather than involve the police and how on earth was that ever seen as fair?

Yes, it is still the case. Prosecutions based on Horizon "evidence" stopped in 2015. I haven't been able to find any statistics as to whether there have been any other prosecutions.

The Post Office's prosecution powers go back to 1683, before the police existed. I suspect that no-one ever considered whether it was right for them to retain those powers.

prh47bridge · 13/01/2024 08:16

To add to my last post...

Even if Post Office isn't prosecuting people any more, it still has the powers to do so. I would like to see two changes to the law. Firstly, Post Office should lose its powers to prosecute. Secondly, the presumption that computer evidence is accurate should be removed. For me, the second of those is the more important. That presumption gave defendants a mountain to climb to prove their innocence.

PerkingFaintly · 13/01/2024 10:04

Indeed. PO seems to have underpaid its tax... while overpaying its executives.

Exec's bonuses were based on a profit figure which carefully ignored all this compensation the PO has been paying out, so was higher than reality.

Meanwhile the PO's profit figure for the taxman carefully included the compensation payouts. However not all costs to a business are tax-deductible, and compensation payouts usually aren't.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064

A post office van in Aldwych, central London.

Post Office may face £100m tax bill over victim payouts - experts

It may have underpaid more than £100m in tax while overpaying its senior executives, according to experts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67964064

Alcyoneus · 13/01/2024 10:41

So post office messes up, the CEO gets a CBE. Fujitsu who provided the system gets hundreds of billions of pounds worth of taxpayer contracts. Keith who was leading public prosecutions when many were wrongly prosecuted, gets to be the next prime minister. Ed Davey, who was literally the govt minister of post office gets to lead a political party.

And the taxpayer has to foot the bill from the scandal.

When are these pieces of crap going to be held accountable?

chaosmaker · 13/01/2024 16:09

Surely there is a case for the SPM to bring a case of being defrauded and miscarriage of justice against both the PO and Fujitsu for the cover ups that led to their lives and reputations being devastated. Have listened to most of the Radio 4 series now and watching the Panorama. It beggars belief that capitalism causes such harm. I don't know why I'm surprised at all though.

chaosmaker · 13/01/2024 16:15

Also murder indirectly where people committed suicide.

prh47bridge · 13/01/2024 16:47

The compensation schemes are intended to avoid subpostmasters having to go through the courts. However, there is a criminal investigation going on. This started as an investigation into two Fujitsu employees for perjury. It has now widened and is looking at possible charges of fraud and perverting the course of justice. We don't know who might be charged.

A charge of murder wouldn't stick. It requires the defendant to have directly caused someone's death with the intention to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. I doubt that there is anything senior managers could be charged with in relation to the suicides. Post Office could possibly face a charge of corporate manslaughter, but I'm not convinced that would fly.