To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

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There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

The writers and cast deserve all tv honours for taking a huge, unwieldy collection of information that developed in bits over 20 years - post offices, technology, little frauds, some people dishonest , nothing to really grab mass attention - and packaging it into an understandable form that has socked us all in the mouth with a mighty punch. If you didn't have personal knowledge of the events you wouldn't believe it happened. To see it unfold in front of you over 4 nights was utterly shocking. Best wishes to all concerned for a satisfactory resolution and many thanks to everyone involved in the tv production.

Let’s be honest, the whole reason this case came to light is because of Alan Bates and his campaign which started 15 years ago.

Neither Labour nor the Conservatives government, gave a shit really did they ?

It took an ITV drama to cause the outrage it did. No government past or present comes of well from this.

This is just another inconvenience for the government , Im sure that’s how they see it.

But compensation isn’t enough, but that doesn’t hurt or punish the individuals responsible for this.

I want them to face criminal charges. I want to see them financially hurt.

Just giving the post masters a sum settlement isn’t enough- those responsible need to see a prison cell or be financially punished.

I think the current government will overturn all convictions and give out large interim payments. Having said that there will of course be post masters who did scam the system. Nothing to do with Horizon. One of the PMasters did indicate this in a recent intereview but that is a small price to pay for this horrible situation.

Watched the documentary episode of the current series last night.

Vennells in front of the parliamentary committee.

She's soooooo slippery. She constantly does Reasonable Voice, while evading the question and pretending she's the one in authority.

If you didn't know the context, she'd come across as sincere and reasonable. Except that sitting in the background of the shot is Jo Hamilton, one of the SPMs featured, who actually laughs when Vennells denies knowing stuff.

IIRC Jo said that was the moment she realised PO management had decided to go for a full cover-up.

Scary to think she was a woman of religion , a priest none the less. ( Vennells)

Unbelievable. A liar and being corrupt isn’t the qualities I’d expect from someone who was a priest.

I don’t want her to be a scapegoat though, but I’d imagine the post office hierarchy will now hang her out to dry to divert the blame.

It goes much further than just her.

Ultimately , her reputation is ruined and she’ll go down in the history books connected to this case.

So that’s some justice atleast

I had been wondering what the situation in Scotland was - it seems that the Post Office doesn't have prosecution powers there. I wonder if the numbers prosecuted there were much lower. It could be quite telling - but also if the Scottish authorities were refusing to prosecute - why did they not raise the alarm - or did they?

There was an ex MP writing in the Times who received an email/letter from someone affected in Scotland and he said he'd forwarded it to the Post Office who'd said they were investigating, but he'd not followed it up and felt bad about it now. I bet he did, but they might have been the only person who contacted him.

Chief techie demands immunity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/09/horizon-expert-gareth-jenkins-post-office-inquiry-immunity/

God gets all the best people Paul2023 have you never noticed? I often feel a bit of smiting wouldn't go amiss.

Blimey. Imagine what he knows...

I can't access the Telegraph article, so I can't see whether he's more scared of breaking an NDA with Fujitsu or of being criminally prosecuted.

Probably both @PerkingFaintly. I doubt we'll see anything resembling the truth without his evidence. I also doubt that he'll be set free to tell us. Lots of arm twisting ahead for all sorts of people.

I hope heads will roll for this and I hope the powers that be take a good look at Fujitsu and the lawyers involved in supporting the Post Office's prosecutions as well as at the Post Office itself. And all those people in positions of authority or influence who didn't scrutinise what was going on and took the Post Office's word for it (that includes MPs and Govt Ministers)

Thank you for the article link, @Lalgarh . From the article, it looks like PO are still playing games:

Mr Jenkins was first due to give testimony to the inquiry on July 6 2023 but on the eve of his evidence the Post Office produced 5,000 documents it said had just come to light. The appearance was rescheduled for November 2023 but again more than 3,000 documents were found by the Post Office, this time days beforehand, forcing the postponement.

He will be signed off sick next, no doubt, too ill to testify.

An NDA can't (legally) prevent the signatory from cooperating in a criminal inquiry, so he can stop bleating about that for a start. If he's basically said under oath that no one at Fujitsu could remotely access the system and change postmasters' accounts, then he needs to be prosecuted for perjury.

One of the most shocking parts of the dramatisation was the union chap who visited the Fujitsu high security room, was shown what they could do down there remotely to SPs' accounts, got thrown out when it was clear he was shocked and then ended up being visited the following morning in his bedroom by PO inspectors, and being told he had a £44k deficit! Which his wife ended up doing time for. And then the visitor log for the time he visited mysteriously went missing. I was open mouthed that ITV got that past the lawyers with its implication that he was targeted for knowing too much.

I actually think the PO (as it currently exists) might fold off the back of this.

He is scared of being criminally prosecuted. The judge in the group litigation wrote to the Director of Public Prosecutions when the case ended and said that this architect (Gareth Jenkins) and another Fujitsu employee (Ann Chambers) should be investigated for perjury in civil and criminal cases pursued by Post Office. The Met have been investigating the two of them for four years. Both have been interviewed under caution but neither has been arrested (and nor has anyone else).

Jenkins has repeatedly asked for immunity and for any evidence he gives to the inquiry to be privileged, so that it can't be used against him in any criminal prosecution. He has repeatedly been told that he isn't getting what he wants.

Government just announced that will overturn all convictions and offer £75k to all post masters. Those that lost more will have their claims assessed to deter how much they should receive.
The government minister stated that this could include people who actually did still from the Post office but even so everyone will be cleared.

Id imagine the people that lost smaller amounts will accept the automated £75 k pay out.

Those like Jo ,and Lee will hopefully get a larger pay out. Much larger

I was just coming here to mention Gareth Jenkins. I hope he gets prosecuted and jailed for his part. An expert witness whose testimony was responsible for a lot of successful prosecutions. Disgusting man.

I realised today that my local post office was affected by this. As is becoming a familiar story the SBM admitted to making false entries in order to cover up losses of £25,000. Originally charged with stealing it, that charge was dropped after the prosecution accepted they hadn't taken it.

The false entries were apparently made because the SBM was trying to get the money together to put it in themselves.

This is from the news report at the time:

The SBM "had previously denied doing anything wrong, saying it was the fault of the official Post Office accounting system – known as Horizon – which, she claimed, was flawed and showed losses when in fact none had occurred. But when she appeared in court on Monday she admitted such a claim had no foundation."

She was given a suspended sentence, community work and £1000 costs. She also stumped up the £25,000.

Absolutely bloody shocking. She moved away from the area when it happened.

When huge sums of money are involved, morals and ethics always seem to disappear. £400K isn't going to buy Paula a 1st class ticket to Heaven. The Post Office should be prosecuted for Corporate Manslaughter. They knowingly allowed SPMs to use machinery that wasn't fit for purpose, and that caused the deaths of 4 employees.

Superb post

Im not sure corporate manslaughter would work in a court of law , as they technically took their own lives.
But they should be charged with every charge possible. Including individuals.

If he is granted immunity he might share an awful lot of information that might be very important in getting others in the know prosecuted.

I don't think we should allow anyone to blackmail us.

www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/lord-arbuthnot-reviews-mr-bates-vs-post-office

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but an interesting piece from MP Arbuthnot portrayed in the drama.

More on the problems of procurement:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/11/fujitsu-repay-post-office-scandal-horizon-it-software
The firm has been awarded government contracts worth billions in recent years and its continued involvement in important IT schemes has raised concerns at Westminster.
Ministers tried to prevent Fujitsu getting more official work but this proved “impossible” despite its “woeful” performance, a Tory peer revealed on Wednesday.
Lord Maude of Horsham, who served as Cabinet Office minister under David Cameron, said procurement rules thwarted ministers’ efforts

I hope they have enough to make convictions without bargaining for evidence and that all guilty are made culpable, I worry that a lot of documents have now been destroyed.

From all the US TV shows I've watched, they make bargaining chips don't they with the mafia / drug rings?

Personally I can't see much difference between those organisations and the way the post office has operated.

Former Post Office investigator Stephen Bradshaw testifying at the Inquiry. Shifty piece of work

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67941754

Placemarking