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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To draw your attention to Mr Bates vs The Post Office

810 replies

5foot5 · 01/01/2024 22:27

There is already a thread about this on the Telly Addicts forum here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

However this seems like such an important subject that I thought I would draw attention to it on AIBU.

The first episode aired tonight but the whole series is available on itvx.

Most of you will no doubt have heard about the Horizon scandal, but whether you have or you haven't this program is compelling. It will probably make you furious but it deserves as wide an audience as possible.,

MR BATES VS THE POST OFFICE - mon to thur ITV 9pm - tv pace no spoilers | Mumsnet

Mon to thur  Mr Bates vs The Post Office is an ITV drama based on a true story of injustice starring Toby Jones, Julie Hesmondhalgh, WIll Mello...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/4970440-mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-mon-to-thur-itv-9pm-tv-pace-no-spoilers

OP posts:
Thread gallery
61
MasterBeth · 07/01/2024 11:36

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 11:26

I'm wondering if they are able to trace the actual line of code that might have been at fault

20 years on, after constant upgrades, on a system that has now been removed... Probably not.

Janieforever · 07/01/2024 11:37

I’m curious about if there were any errors the other way. In favour of the sub post masters,

to explain, all we have seen is errors that resulted in deficits, and the subpost managers made responsible

but maybe the errors could have worked both ways. Where it said there was extra money, I’m curious with it only ever causing a deficit or being completely accurate , that it never had errors in the sub post masters favour. Not the ones who suffered the deficits obvs, but that some sub post offices found the system telling them they had more money and it was basically theirs

it seems odd when they were in their messing with it so much, that the faults were only a deficit. Or competent accurate, it never failed to record properly and resulted in an excess.

WingingItSince1973 · 07/01/2024 11:49

It may have been touched on but I was thinking while watching the harrowing episodes surely if they were guilty of stealing money, this money would show up somewhere. Their bank accounts? A different account? Lifestyle changes? Big purchases etc. There would have been a money trail somewhere but obviously there isn't as they didn't take any money. My heart breaks for them all. 20 of Alan Bates life and the lives of all the others seeking justice. And to those that took their own lives, nothing will ever make that better. It's surely a criminal case now against those in charge at the PO.

WingingItSince1973 · 07/01/2024 11:50

*20 years I meant x

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 11:57

Janieforever · 07/01/2024 11:37

I’m curious about if there were any errors the other way. In favour of the sub post masters,

to explain, all we have seen is errors that resulted in deficits, and the subpost managers made responsible

but maybe the errors could have worked both ways. Where it said there was extra money, I’m curious with it only ever causing a deficit or being completely accurate , that it never had errors in the sub post masters favour. Not the ones who suffered the deficits obvs, but that some sub post offices found the system telling them they had more money and it was basically theirs

it seems odd when they were in their messing with it so much, that the faults were only a deficit. Or competent accurate, it never failed to record properly and resulted in an excess.

Yes this did happen according to the evidence in one of the podcasts linked above. One of the problems, though, was that sometimes the wrong sub post master was credited. Whether those sub post masters were aware that they were being credited unfairly, or whether they thought that Horizon must have detected a mistake on their part, remains unknown.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 07/01/2024 12:06

If you assume that the vast majority of subpostmasters were honest people, which they probably were, because the Post Office vetting procedure was rigorous, errors in favour of the SPO would have shown up and been reported to the PO, who would have looked into it and put it right. They had no incentive to do the reverse because the contract the PO had imposed on the subpostmasters said they were responsible for all losses no matter where they came from.

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 12:08

WingingItSince1973 · 07/01/2024 11:49

It may have been touched on but I was thinking while watching the harrowing episodes surely if they were guilty of stealing money, this money would show up somewhere. Their bank accounts? A different account? Lifestyle changes? Big purchases etc. There would have been a money trail somewhere but obviously there isn't as they didn't take any money. My heart breaks for them all. 20 of Alan Bates life and the lives of all the others seeking justice. And to those that took their own lives, nothing will ever make that better. It's surely a criminal case now against those in charge at the PO.

All of those sorts of matters would be raised by defence counsel and forensic accounting experts. The problem is, these sub post masters didn't have any representation. They were barred from having legal representation during the interview process conducted by the PO when they were being investigated. They were allowed to bring a friend, but that friend had to stay silent. They were locked out of their post offices without warning and prevented from accessing their own records held there. They had no financial means to hire clever lawyers to work through the logic/illogic of the case. This was not a case of electronic transfers being traceable out of the PO to a private bank account - they were being accused of taking cash. The computer said they had taken it, so who is going to question the holy computer? This was happening at a time when very few lay people understood computer systems in order to question the veracity of whether that system was working properly - believe me, your average defence barrister would be clueless. Many of these poor people just agreed to plead guilty to false accounting in exchange for the theft charges being dropped, in order to make the thing go away by taking a light sentence and getting on with their lives.

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 12:16

Someone on Another Talkboard has just linked to this case. Postmaster lost his home family and reputation after being convicted of theft. Couldn't explain how there were discrepancies. Died unnoticed. There must be dozens of cases where it goes into the realms of local gossip

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-postmaster-previously-jailed-fraud-4731169

Mentions the auditors picking up on the supposed discrepancy. Were they just assuming the Horizon system was infallible?

Postmaster jailed for fraud was found weeks after his death

The body of Peter Huxham was discovered by police in July

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/devon-postmaster-previously-jailed-fraud-4731169

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 12:28

Lucieinthesky07 · 07/01/2024 10:49

There'll be some individual scapegoats. Fujitsu's insurers will have to pay up something probably but there won't be any senior accountability. Fujitsu will be on the naughty step for a while and then it will all be forgotten. The Japanese have huge influence and leverage over the UK and Government. They are not worried.

Fujitsu have been sued before, in the civil courts under contract law - a long running case about a system they implemented for the NHS. Which they won, basically, because their systems are only as good as the instructions they are given by the client (the government/NHS). That was a hugely complicated system. The PO one, which is effectively a double entry accounting system, you would think would be relatively straightforward. However, even if the system was rubbish because the PO's instructions were rubbish, that's a contract law/ civil case between government/PO and Fujitsu. I agree that politically the PO might not want to go there, and fingers have been burned in previous cases, with tax payers footing the legal bill.

However, what is being investigated by the Met is criminal charges against Fujitsu employees who lied on the witness stand during criminal prosecutions, under instruction from their superiors; and I think they should be looking at a possible criminal conspiracy between the PO and Fujitsu to defraud SPOs of their money through malicious and knowingly unfounded prosecutions backed up by false evidence from Fujitsu. The case of the lovely lady Jo in the dramatisation suggested that the PO had zero evidence against her when they were prosecuting her, yet they still pursued her to a guilty plea. That will not be an isolated incident. However, the dramatisation also suggested PO/Fujitsu were destroying evidence.

I sincerely hope that the Met police is free from political interference and investigate this thoroughly, and that prosecutions will happen. Certainly, and in an election year, the public are firmly on the side of the SPOs and want some justice in the criminal courts, so if political pressure does influence the Met, hopefully it will be on the side of the little people for a change. (Ha, ha, ha, we should all remain cynical)

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 13:51

It’s shocking. People lost everything, I mean literally everything ( including freedom ) for something that wasn’t their fault.

Im aware of the case but going to watch the program on catch up later.

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 13:53

Didnt the Post Office think it was strange that so many of people were ‘ thieving’. Surely they must have thought that something wasn’t right and perhaps a computer glitch?

I’ll watch later anyway.

Will anyone for the Post office be prosecuted for this , genuinely?

LlynTegid · 07/01/2024 14:01

This reminds you that tv dramas and indeed films whilst fictional can have an impact on people in real-life. Congratulations to ITV for shining a spotlight on this.

A previous example was the film about Alan Turing, that led to the pardoning of those convicted pre 1967 under the laws which criminalised homosexuality.

I think a pardon of all those convicted could be done speedily, each former sub-postmaster taken to court should not have to wait and apply individually.

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 14:20

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 11:26

I'm wondering if they are able to trace the actual line of code that might have been at fault

It wasn't a single line of code. There were loads of bugs in the software that could cause problems with a subpostmaster's accounts.

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 14:30

Janieforever · 07/01/2024 11:37

I’m curious about if there were any errors the other way. In favour of the sub post masters,

to explain, all we have seen is errors that resulted in deficits, and the subpost managers made responsible

but maybe the errors could have worked both ways. Where it said there was extra money, I’m curious with it only ever causing a deficit or being completely accurate , that it never had errors in the sub post masters favour. Not the ones who suffered the deficits obvs, but that some sub post offices found the system telling them they had more money and it was basically theirs

it seems odd when they were in their messing with it so much, that the faults were only a deficit. Or competent accurate, it never failed to record properly and resulted in an excess.

Yes, there were. But the evidence is that the errors mainly favoured Post Office.

Horizon had to reconcile its figures with various Post Office clients (utilities, DVLA, Camelot, etc.). It almost invariably was unable to reconcile its figures. Post Office clients reckoned Post Office owed them less than Horizon thought it did. This discrepancy went into a suspense account for three years while Post Office supposedly investigated who the money belonged to, and was then added to Post Office profits. It doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone that this money might have belonged to subpostmasters.

But yes, sometimes there were errors in favour of subpostmasters.

Lalgarh · 07/01/2024 16:01

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 13:53

Didnt the Post Office think it was strange that so many of people were ‘ thieving’. Surely they must have thought that something wasn’t right and perhaps a computer glitch?

I’ll watch later anyway.

Will anyone for the Post office be prosecuted for this , genuinely?

Supposedly under the previously paper based accounting systems, the Post Office suspected that their sub postmasters were ripping them off, and so for them the apparent discrepancies that Horizon started showing proved their suspicions.
Ie confirmation bias

Lucieinthesky07 · 07/01/2024 16:04

Whydowomendothistothemselves · 07/01/2024 12:28

Fujitsu have been sued before, in the civil courts under contract law - a long running case about a system they implemented for the NHS. Which they won, basically, because their systems are only as good as the instructions they are given by the client (the government/NHS). That was a hugely complicated system. The PO one, which is effectively a double entry accounting system, you would think would be relatively straightforward. However, even if the system was rubbish because the PO's instructions were rubbish, that's a contract law/ civil case between government/PO and Fujitsu. I agree that politically the PO might not want to go there, and fingers have been burned in previous cases, with tax payers footing the legal bill.

However, what is being investigated by the Met is criminal charges against Fujitsu employees who lied on the witness stand during criminal prosecutions, under instruction from their superiors; and I think they should be looking at a possible criminal conspiracy between the PO and Fujitsu to defraud SPOs of their money through malicious and knowingly unfounded prosecutions backed up by false evidence from Fujitsu. The case of the lovely lady Jo in the dramatisation suggested that the PO had zero evidence against her when they were prosecuting her, yet they still pursued her to a guilty plea. That will not be an isolated incident. However, the dramatisation also suggested PO/Fujitsu were destroying evidence.

I sincerely hope that the Met police is free from political interference and investigate this thoroughly, and that prosecutions will happen. Certainly, and in an election year, the public are firmly on the side of the SPOs and want some justice in the criminal courts, so if political pressure does influence the Met, hopefully it will be on the side of the little people for a change. (Ha, ha, ha, we should all remain cynical)

Fujitsu are Corporate cowards, hiding behind the Horizon Inquiry and expensive Legal and crisis Management. They won't face any real scrutiny as they have too much leverage over the Government. The Met Police are hardly trustworthy! Fujitsu have the ageing Police National Computer (PNC), Mainframe and support contract with the Home Office. 'Computer says no today' 😀

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:24

A very sad case for that man. Was he properly compensated?
His dad died not knowing his conviction was quashed. So terrible

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:54

I’ve just read that Ed Davey made hundreds of thousands of pounds working of a legal firm who were the same firm who prosecuted the post office sub masters.

chaosmaker · 07/01/2024 17:58

An ex subpostmaster was on the Laura Keunssberg programme today and basically said to write to your MP in support of them and that there are currently 3 different compensation schemes - which is a total nonsense as they were all defrauded by the same computer bugs which were known about at the time and from their accounts being accessed from outside when they weren't even in work.

For the current state of politics, see the following work from 80's or 90's Ben Elton. It really could be about today's tory party.

The Man From Auntie Series 1 Episode 4 part 2

Fourth episode of Ben Elton The Man From Auntieproperty of the BBC and other copyright holders

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejky18tdOwE

GCAcademic · 07/01/2024 18:09

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 16:54

I’ve just read that Ed Davey made hundreds of thousands of pounds working of a legal firm who were the same firm who prosecuted the post office sub masters.

Edited

How is that even possible? Surely that was a conflict of interest with his role as Postal Affairs Minister? He's an absolute disgrace.

Paul2023 · 07/01/2024 18:13

What is the likelihood of of those incompetent people being sent to jail? They quite happily sent innocent men and women to jail, and those that didn’t lost everything.

Some of those poor souls were under pressure to plead guilty even they knew they were innocent.

prh47bridge · 07/01/2024 18:19

GCAcademic · 07/01/2024 18:09

How is that even possible? Surely that was a conflict of interest with his role as Postal Affairs Minister? He's an absolute disgrace.

He wasn't working for them at the same time as being Postal Affairs Minister. He ceased to be Postal Affairs Minister in 2012 and took joined the legal firm (Herbert Smith Freehills) in 2015.

43ontherocksporfavor · 07/01/2024 18:55

It takes a tv program for the government to do the right thing!🤦🏼‍♀️

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