Term time holidays

[Idontusuallypostonherebut]

I'm a parent governor at my little ones school. I guess I would say I support the school in most of their policies, but some of them I find a tad ridiculous. I know that the government or the LA are the ones behind fines for taking children out of school for unauthorised absences. But having sat in the recent meeting and hear the HT saying oh yes we definitely enforce the fines for unauthorised absence. It just leaves me a bit baffled why because not once in these meetings have they ever said that the LA gave that money to the school.

I know the argument is mostly something like if parents get a fine once it might make the think twice about doing it again... But the reality is it likely won't. If you're going to get fined 60 pounds for each parent and it's considerably cheaper for a holiday in term time you're most likely going to do it again.

Over the weekend we were catching up with friends and one mum said her kids finished school on 15th December, and only go back on the 5th - for one day, she said if they had been abroad visiting family they'd have stayed away until 5th or 6th so the kids benefit from longer with relatives. One friend always takes her children away the weekend right before the summer holidays start - weirdly our schools seem to do Tuesday or Wednesday finish, so she just calls them in sick those 2/3 days. My sister in law sometimes takes her kids out at the end of the week before the official end of term too because she says otherwise they can't afford to go to visit family abroad. I read a post on here last week about people saying it didn't feel very Christmassey because the kids were at school until late.... I know some schools didn't finish until 22nd and then of course it was practically Christmas eve, so no time to prepare /get over the end of term sickness bugs. Someone said they also took their kids out the last few days to avoid them getting sick for Christmas and to do crafts and stuff in their house, as the children aren't really doing much in school those last couple of days anyway.

I don't know I just feel a bit like am I the only one who isn't taking kids out of school to benefit from more time with family /cheaper prices /avoiding illnesses. Last year my husband wanted us to take a term time holiday and I shot him down, we argued about it and paid a fortune for the same holiday in school holidays time.

I wish we'd taken those 3 days off so we didn't get a sickness bug/flu that was doing the rounds and took us out for the pretty entire holiday so far.

But I read a post on here, about 10 years old now - but people were saying a parent governors position should be untenable if they don't support the school on unauthorised absence. People were saying the parent governors as part of the board have to approve the policies but this is a government policy so not optional

So what are people's opinions......

@menopausalmare so I agree with you in terms of practical work of course there isn't time to go back and reteach it to one or ten children who missed the week. But I'm sure that there must be measures in place for long term sickness absences? And work is sent home? Given as part of their homework? If parents were made to catch up the children it would likely be more of a deterrent than paying a fine?
I agree that teacher pay progression should not be linked in the way you describe.
For our school I am aware of teachers and TA's who have taken the time off for holidays during term time, HT and deputies covered it and was the end of it really

There was a thread recently about the possibility of taking a 14yo out for three weeks. Many posters were in agreement with it...

Personally...weve taken children out for the odd day. But much more than a week then it does become a problem.
£60 isn't a deterrent. I would do no fines for 5 days, £50 for 6-8 days... then an additional £50 per day. So 2 children missing two weeks would be £300.

@ActuallyChristmas I agree with you on what you say re work and skiving off and HR catch you, of course there will be consequences. But as a working adult I ask my boss for time off when I want it to be... When there is something I want to attend that I am interested in, at an affordable cost. If it's approved I can go. But when I see something that's educational or interesting for my children or affordable to us the approval isn't available for the majority of the year.

I agree that schools are stuck with sticking to the policy, but a nationwide policy isn't a one size fits all approach... But the government will never wake up and realise that

The best that you can as parents is contact your MP and complain about the DfE policy. If enough parents do….

But please also remember to criticism of schools during COVID when lack of contact and absence led to at least one child death.
Think of those children who are safer in school, those we go to pick up to bring away from poverty or abuse, those who have feckless parents who don't set good examples, who don't care if their child has qualifications or good patterns of attendance, ready for work.

Attendance issues are not really about the odd term time holiday ( though in schools with average attendance this is the main cause of absence) and possibly the demographic on MN.

Those of us in education follow what we have to as set by the DfE.

Parents take their children out of school all the time for holidays. It's another reason why my school can't recruit staff.

@EstaFB Whilst I agree that generally we all want the best for our children and as you say break the cycles of poverty and gain qualifications and set them up for a good attitude to attendance in their working career, I feel that the attitude towards attendance definitely changed since covid - both parents and children. Children now still ask how come that time before they had to go to school for a week, then be at home for multiple weeks before only doing another week and being home again.

I agree that persistent absence is a problem, and the only absences we've had have related to genuine illness and doctor /dentist appointments I see myself there are some days where my youngest needs a rest, I send her in regardless and then invariably a few days or a week later she's sick and I'm sure that if I'd kept her home that one day perhaps she'd have not gotten sick and missed less time. I have employers who encourage you to take a day if you need it.... Ideally not at a really busy time when you know half the team are off already. By forcing children to go in when they could use a rest we're just encouraging them to keep taking roles where you're expected to work when you're sick and not take care of themselves.

I think you're a terrible governor. You clearly don't understand the policy, ie after how many days a fine can be issued, or the concept of safeguarding children in education.

I think there are lots of weeks in the year when children are not in school in which to take holiday.

The second point I made is equally important. Why should companies be allowed to charge such a premium? Some might say good business move for them. I say, why is it considered ethical?

@Eachpeachpears that's literally how supply and demand works. The holiday companies are businesses....

In the workplace, leave requests are balanced against business needs. So not too many people off, or shutdowns, or not at busy periods.
In schools, the request to not take children on holiday is balancing the fact that they can't repeat missed lessons.

Yea right. This always comes up in discussions about school term time holidays. It’s a dead end and a pointless conversations. These businesses are going to charge as much as they can, also they probably need to charge higher in peak periods to cover losses/lows of off peak periods.

I think you've misstagged there @Hercisback I've not said anything about holiday companies making money. My point relates to the ops position in relation to the school

I think there is a difference between taking the odd day here and there right before a school holiday for instance and a block of two weeks bang in the middle of school term. When I was a school governor it used to annoy me that I volunteered my time AND couldn't take the odd day here and there to save hundreds of pounds on holiday prices. DS is now in a private school and I'm not a governor there so for instance he missed the last day (finished at 12 and consisted of a quiz) which I was perfectly happy that he missed.

The pressure on attendance percentages is a bit of a nonsense really. I've always been a stickler for never taking time off during term but am beginning to reassess my view on that. One of my children has SEN, is desperately wanting to attend school but the local authority are doing everything in their power to delay finding a school place for them. Two years of no education being provided whilst I have to take them to court to force them to provide the education that is a basic entitlement in law. There are many thousands of children in the same situation.

It beggars belief that local authorities fine parents for taking a few days off citing the importance of school attendance and at the same time actively prevent other children from attending school for long periods of time to save themselves money.

Contact your MP if you haven't already.

This is a massive central government issue. LA’s can only work with the funding they are given by the Conservative government ( huge cuts - £5.5m again( 3rd year running) in my LA’s Children’s Services budget) and political stance on opening new schools.

LA’s cannot open new schools, so places are so limited. My LA has plans passed for using two existing buildings as schools focussing on special Ed. - and two new builds. The LA cannot open them an Academy Trust has to do this…local trusts are not interested or don't have the skill. The Regional Director (DfE) hasn't found a trust willing.

In my LA SEN places end up outside if the county, in private provision ( excess of £100,000 per year, per child, plusbtransport costs) - of course leaving even less in the already slashed and therefore overspent budget.

National provision for SEND is shocking. Please, parents complain in your masses. LA’s are not able to meet the demands, look at how many are near to bankruptcy.

This is if course, not linked to a very different national DfE policy on attendance.

@PuttingDownRoots even £300 fine is still cheaper than what a holiday costs in July/August this is the issue. It's not just a slight hike price it's absolutely unaffordable for many what these holiday companies charge in summer!

@StrictlyComeSnoozing yes absolutely. You spoke upon missed lessons? Implying a child will fall behind. I agree a missed lesson should just be that.

@Putyourdamnshoeson I think it's a bit harsh to say I'm a terrible governor based on what you've read but ok... 🤔

I am fully aware that you can be fined for any amount of absence if the school refer it and the LA decide to pursue it 🤷‍♀️. And also as a governor I'm fully aware of safeguarding issues and have completed all of the relevant keeping children safe in education training and documentation

The majority of parents don't take term time holidays. You're not in the minority at all. And the fines do put some people off. Not everyone but some. I'd say as a parent government you should be following the direction of the HT. The fines never go to schools, they are kept by the LA. I think part of it goes to pay for court costs for those parents who don't pay the fines and choose to go to Court.

You can't be fined for any amount of absence. It has to be over a certain amount of sessions and it has to be unauthorised.

I have never taken my children out of school during term time. They have near 100% attendance. But I reserve the right to do so if it is necessary.

I would never, ever pay a fine and would simply tell anyone who tried to issue a fine to me to fuck off.

I've never taken mine out as unfortunately DH is a teacher. If he wasn't I absolutely would have done in primary, not in secondary.

The chair of the governors took her kids out for the whole last week of term (ending on 15th) to go to a centreparcs type place. Lots of parents do similar. I am taking mine out next summer for a week (post sats) before one child starts senior school in september and it won't be an option for us. I know we will be probably be fined as it's a full week of school so ten sessions, but as long as the fines are applied fairly across the board, I have no issue with it.

Ive never taken the kids out of school for holidays, or anything voluntary like that. Only if they are sick or have medical etc appointments.

However, I don’t judge or get involved with what anyone else does - it’s up to them - as long as no one expects teacher time to be taken up “catching them up” after their week skiing etc