Term time holidays

[Idontusuallypostonherebut]

I'm a parent governor at my little ones school. I guess I would say I support the school in most of their policies, but some of them I find a tad ridiculous. I know that the government or the LA are the ones behind fines for taking children out of school for unauthorised absences. But having sat in the recent meeting and hear the HT saying oh yes we definitely enforce the fines for unauthorised absence. It just leaves me a bit baffled why because not once in these meetings have they ever said that the LA gave that money to the school.

I know the argument is mostly something like if parents get a fine once it might make the think twice about doing it again... But the reality is it likely won't. If you're going to get fined 60 pounds for each parent and it's considerably cheaper for a holiday in term time you're most likely going to do it again.

Over the weekend we were catching up with friends and one mum said her kids finished school on 15th December, and only go back on the 5th - for one day, she said if they had been abroad visiting family they'd have stayed away until 5th or 6th so the kids benefit from longer with relatives. One friend always takes her children away the weekend right before the summer holidays start - weirdly our schools seem to do Tuesday or Wednesday finish, so she just calls them in sick those 2/3 days. My sister in law sometimes takes her kids out at the end of the week before the official end of term too because she says otherwise they can't afford to go to visit family abroad. I read a post on here last week about people saying it didn't feel very Christmassey because the kids were at school until late.... I know some schools didn't finish until 22nd and then of course it was practically Christmas eve, so no time to prepare /get over the end of term sickness bugs. Someone said they also took their kids out the last few days to avoid them getting sick for Christmas and to do crafts and stuff in their house, as the children aren't really doing much in school those last couple of days anyway.

I don't know I just feel a bit like am I the only one who isn't taking kids out of school to benefit from more time with family /cheaper prices /avoiding illnesses. Last year my husband wanted us to take a term time holiday and I shot him down, we argued about it and paid a fortune for the same holiday in school holidays time.

I wish we'd taken those 3 days off so we didn't get a sickness bug/flu that was doing the rounds and took us out for the pretty entire holiday so far.

But I read a post on here, about 10 years old now - but people were saying a parent governors position should be untenable if they don't support the school on unauthorised absence. People were saying the parent governors as part of the board have to approve the policies but this is a government policy so not optional

So what are people's opinions......

TA here slightly different slant perhaps but it’s such a shame to take children out for the last few days of the Xmas term. It’s such a lovely few days when there are lots of crafts, games or treats going on. I think it’s so important for children that they don’t just view school as work work work. It’s also a social place where fun things go on that they can do with friends and teachers.
Its very helpful for the teachers if they can establish great relationships with the pupils and a lot if this is done during the fun parts of school. It pays dividends when things get tough at school if there is a great relationship between children and teachers.
Regarding taking children out of school during the more academic times of year, they child might miss a crucial learning step in maths or something and it can lead to long term weakness in that subject and loss of confidence in the subject. I think it’s unreasonable to expect the teacher to give up their own lunch time or time in the evening to help the child catch up. Teachers are already really overwhelmed by the workload.

I doubt that's true as ofsted would frown on it as not attempting to tackle non attendance.

@modgepodge i think you're right, a lot of the justification people say is they do t for anything the last few days, but it seems most of the time they do... I guess it's perhaps parents memories of their days in school where the last week was more fun and games than learning

@Justrolledmyeyesoutloud I agree with you. But I am sure schools notice a pattern when it's two or three years in a row

Having seen the stats at the end of last term, I can tell you that it very much depends where you live as to how much fines are focused on. In England if I remember correctly there was one county that issued fines if over £400,000 , my nearest one was £10,000 and three counties didn't issue any fines at all.

My opinion is we live in a democracy so no one should tell me what to do or not to do with my children unless I am abusive. Each time I have taken my child from school in term time, they have had more education than the days the would have spent in school. Also the government thought it was ok to close schools for months on end during the pandemic with no thought at all on what it was doing to the childrens social or mental well being. So I will continue to take the child out of school :)

@Hercisback I think this is the problem, covid has a lot to answer for and some see education as optional now, I think because rules around fines were relaxed more after lockdowns... Because it's only this and last academic year that they've gone back to 'normal'.

School doesn't get the fine money, the LA does. This is why the school where I am a governor does not issue fines, lots of work to issue them, and parental ill-feeling for no benefit.

I think anyone in any position in which they are upholding standards and rules should absolutely be adhering to those standards and rules themselves.

I also think if people want to take their children out of school during term time for holidays then so be it. However, it should be explicitly understood that whatever the child misses in lessons is missed forever. No catch up sessions, no recaps and no specially set work. It also irritates me when people play the culture card, and claim a holiday is more educational than education because of language, culture etc when the reality for most is kids splashing in the pool enjoying the sunshine and ice creams (absolutely nothing wrong with that either!)

@ZenNudist I'm sorry, the price jumps are just so unfair aren't they? It feels like it is that that the government should crack down on. I think honestly is the best policy in like you say you've said to them they just won't be in.

Sadly I don't think there's any way to address it, the school just seem to blindly follow the government policy, one parent governor was bringing up all kinds of 'complaints' apparently from other parents in the school just as I was coming in as a governor but it was just like this is the policy, of course they were flexible with it in covid

@Lilacdressinggown thank you for your input. It's one of those situations where you can't see it on both sides of the fence I think. I remember being at primary school and the last week of term was crafts, parties and all sorts of things.... We used to take cake or crisps or something for 3 days in a row 🤣 and agree that sometimes it is probably the best way for teachers to build rapport with some kids. I think some classes in the school are just work, work, work and others it's movies every other week 🤦🏼‍♀️

@indianwoman I'm curious is there a way to get these stats. Because I know it varies from area to area and I'm nosey 🤣

@Lesina my friend once said to me that once your children start school they aren't really yours anymore, and in so many ways that's true. We've both had days where we send the kids in but aren't sure if we should, teacher or TA is told they're a bit off.... They say they'll keep an eye.... I'm not saying they don't... But the kids come out of school with beet red faces and sky high temperature because school only send them home if they vomit 😔

@missy111 this is the thing, why do schools want to take on extra paperwork for a fine that doesn't go to the school, and like you say cause ill will with parents

@StrictlyComeSnoozing but how about when those standards cause martial issues and financial hardships?

I think the parents know that children not in school miss out on those things, I am sure some perhaps try to get the teachers to do catch up with their kids after missing things. But with our school they do a lot of work in worksheets, I don't find it unreasonable for work that children miss to be set aside and sent home for the children to complete at home - and I think it would probably be more of a deterrent for some parents than the risk of a fine.

I think the cultural aspect is one of those things no one will agree on. Going to an all inclusive resort in Greece for example some people will argue that the kids have tried different foods 🤣. In Spain they'll perhaps say they learnt about siestas 🤣. But I have friends and family who are from different countries - they do things differently to here, seeing and experiencing those things is learning about different cultures.

@StrictlyComeSnoozing the falling behind argument is such a weak point. I honestly can't understand how any child is falling so behind on every subject within 5 days. The child must of already been behind IMO.

I served 2 terms as a parent governor then did not stand again as I wouldn’t have had any children left in the school. Attendance overall was always reported by the headteacher but term time absence was never on the agenda for governors’ meetings.

They aren't price jumps- there's less demand in term time so prices are cheaper to attract people as hotels etc have staff and costs to pay beyond the peak times.

Secondary science teacher here. My points are:

1. If students miss required practicals due to holiday, they will not catch up as we don't have capacity to run extra practicals.
2. If parents are taking children out of school, teachers should not provide catch up work.
3. Teachers pay is linked to student performance. If a class perform poorly overall due to absences, it could affect the teachers chance of progression up the pay bands. Appraisal targets shouldn't be performance linked (unions have pushed for this but it still happens).
4. If a teacher took a few days off for a cheap holiday, I suspect there would be an outcry from parents about disruption to lessons.

Then you have to choose between staying in your position or stepping down.

Did you mean to tag me, as I never mentioned falling behind.

So I think two things about this:

• Firstly, if you are supposed to be somewhere and you are not - like work, for instance - if you just skive and HR catches you, you are both in the wrong and liable to a sanction. So is it different for a child in school. Well, no. Now, if your child was doing something educational or attending a once in a lifetime event that couldn’t take place on a weekend, you might get authorised time off. A holiday, taken when it’s cheaper, doesn’t quite qualify mostly.

• Secondly, I think schools are stuck with sticking to the rules and it makes sense. What doesn’t make sense is holiday companies and their opportunistic level of price hiking in recent times. Governments need to regulate this if they were less frightened of looking like socialists/caring people/bunnies in the headlights who are frightened off by words like regulation and legislation.

@Muchtoomuchtodo thank you for clarifying. I just don't want bad feelings between me and the school until youngest leaves the school.... It's another 5 and a half years... I may not do a second term but they have a problem getting parent governors so I'm currently the only one again. I don't think we've had attendance as a standalone item on the agenda either, although the chair likes to go on about it a lot 😔

@GreyhpundGirl but it is still considerably more expensive in the peak times, which is why everyone refers to it as a price jump

Because school leaders, including governors are held to account by the Department for Education, via LA senior officers. Senior LA officers are under pressure by the DFE to make sure children go to school. Attending school is a requirement unless parents have deregistered.

Children should be at school, attendance has a positive impact on children’s outcomes, safeguarding is a key issue. Attendance, especially at secondary is down on pre-COVID times with attendance averaging less than 90% - that is on average every secondary age child missing 10% of their schooling (1 day per week) .
Generally, we all surely want the best opportunities for children, break cycles of poverty, gain qualifications, be brought up with good patterns of attendance, ready for working life.

Other services are cut to the bone too, so early help, social workers and the police also need children to be safely in school.

DFE guidance that the LA and schools are expected to follow.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/working-together-to-improve-school-attendance