The Home Secretary "jokes" about spiking his wifes drink with Rohypnol

[cakeorwine]

As the other thread has been automatically hidden

"James Cleverly has apologised for joking about spiking his wife’s drink with a date rape drug in comments made at a Downing Street reception.
The home secretary’s remarks came just hours after the Home Office announced plans to crack down on spiking, when someone puts drugs into another person’s drink or directly into their body without their knowledge or consent.

Cleverly told female guests at the reception that “a little bit of Rohypnol in her drink every night” was “not really illegal if it’s only a little bit”, the Sunday Mirror reported.
He also laughed that the secret to a long marriage was ensuring your spouse was “someone who is always mildly sedated so she can never realise there are better men out there”."

So much to say about this

I don't understand the distinction you're making. You're saying that he can say what he likes, because he has freedom of speech. But if he says what he likes, he should be sacked for it?

Maybe our idea of consequences are different. I believe your idea of a fair consequence for speech you dislike is one which is damaging to the principle of free speech. As I said above:

"Sacking someone because their speech is considered 'wrong' goes way beyond fair consequences. You're attacking not only his personal freedom of speech, but creating/reinforcing a culture in which everyone understands that saying the 'wrong' thing could cost them their career."

We have seen this 'consequence' meted out to women over and over again in the past decade. I do not think it's a fair consequence of speech, unless that speech is libelous, plagiarised, or incitement to a crime.

Wait until you see what is about to replace them at the next general election. It’s a horrifying prospect.

Appreciate the discussion, everyone. I have to go and do xmassy things now so if you @ or quote me, you probably won't get a response for hours or even days, so might not be worth bothering! I think you know what I'm saying, anyway.

@beastlyslumber

I don't understand the distinction you're making. You're saying that he can say what he likes, because he has freedom of speech. But if he says what he likes, he should be sacked for it?

I'm at a loss as to what you don't understand about the distinction.

I've added the distinction I mean to your words:

"He can say what he likes, because he has freedom of speech. But if he says something grossly offensive / in direct opposition to the code of conduct of his job he should be sacked for it."

That's what I believe.

If someone in power is making sexist or racist jokes in the workplace, what does that mean for the people who work for them?

We have seen it with the police

Met officers joked about raping women, police watchdog reveals | Metropolitan police | The Guardian

The IOPC said the messages showed attitudes that left ethnic minority and female staff in fear and could show officers being discriminatory to their colleagues and staff. The officers also shared a series of racist messages.

Of 14 officers investigated, two were sacked for gross misconduct. Misconduct was proven against another two, with one officer receiving a written warning, while another four faced measures to improve their performance.
Bas Javid, a deputy assistant commissioner with the Met, said he was “angry and disappointed”, felt “disgust and shame” and added “It’s clear we have a lot of work to do to ensure bullying and discrimination does not exist in any part of the Met.
“We recognise that there is need for real change in the Met.”
The IOPC said it reviewed thousands of messages and some officers tried to defend them claiming that they were “banter”, an excuse that was not accepted.

This is part of the culture out there.

There are consequences and leadership should come from the top.

You repeatedly replied to my posts, even taking the time to copy and paste snippets, but refused to give your thoughts on the examples I put to you a number of times.

Despite me giving my thoughts on your example directly.

And now you're bailing? When you took the time to reply to everything else I asked?

Interesting. You clearly don't stand by the courage of your convictions, which is heartening in a way.

As you haven't answered, I assume you don't want to reveal that in the other examples you do think that a sacking is the natural consequence.

It sounds like at least you believe people should lose their job if they make such a 'joke' about black or disabled people. Just not raping women.

Freedom of speech is of course vital & Cleverly still has that right, he can make jokes about pretty much anything really BUT with freedom of speech comes responsibility and consequence,

He is the Home Secretary, that his judgement/morals is so poor, should be of concern to all of us.

The message to many people will be its ok to belittle women, whoever you are.

No wonder the Tories voted against making Misogyny a hate crime.

What happened to Sunak's promise, made on his first day as PM, that he would lead with "integrity, professionalism and accountability?"

Perhaps lieutenant colonel Cleverly's banter stems from his time at Sandhurst in the Army - an organisation that coincidentally was also under scrutiny in today's Guardian: ‘It was a hunting ground’: women and sexual assault in the UK armed forces | Rape and sexual assault | The Guardian

It really does make you wonder what he says in private if that’s what he, the Home Secretary in charge of policing, thinks is an acceptable thing to say in public in front of journalists.

@beastlyslumber in a survey by OFSTED looking at child on child abuse, 92% of girls said sexist name calling and 80% of girls said inappropriate or unwanted comments were made in their peer groups. When boys were questioned they were more likely to see this as banter and not a problem. Is this the sort of freedom of speech you want? Do you want the majority of girls to have to put up with this sort of behaviour?

I think you’re right.

You must live in a different universe to those that need to use public services like the nhs, education or those on the bread line.

Date rape and spousal rape are still rape, he's literally joking about it. Why has he not been sacked already.

As for the free speech debate. For me James Cleverly the person can say what he likes.

However, he didn’t make those comments as James Cleverly bloke speaking to mates, he made them at an official event as the Home Secretary. That makes the difference between comments being deeply unpleasant and completely inappropriate.

Any man making comments like that whilst on duty at a work event would, rightly, face issues if people complained.

It's such a horrific issue are children are so vulnerable to this spiking, boys but of course especially girls.. It's girls and women who are so vulnerable to this spiking horror and there isn't that much we can do about it. So yes... I think it's absolutely awful he made a joke about this, in his position.

I do agree with this. And it’s just gone too far with offence over everything. But in this man’s position he shouldn’t have been cracking jokes about it. It’s different to at a private party/between friends.

i have been spiked more than once (and I was always ott careful with drinks - or so I thought!) and sexually abused etc. It’s obviously not a funny reality but if my husband said as a quip to being asked how to have a long marriage in the right context “keep her mildly sedated” I could perfectly well find it funny.

clearly this man said it in a way that wasn’t funny - he also seems to have made this type of joke several times so maybe it’s just he’s not that funny and got a laugh the first time so kept on. Bit cringe.

there’s definitely a middle ground though in reactions and people are going so extreme on both sides that people are just not allowed to have personalities anymore. Like we have to pretend we are all robots and jokes and flirting and feelings sand thoughts don’t exist. Only words and thought which we must never express.

James Cleverly is a cunt and needs to be sacked. I should be shocked he said this but I'm not at all.

This is what people are voting for. Fucking shame on Tory supporters and voters for enabling this shit.

@beastlyslumber

Maybe given some media training. Maybe given some education on the criminal use of rohypnol and the effect on victims.

I know you've conveniently ducked now but FYI cabinet ministers have extensive media training including frequent refreshers. And James Cleverly has been directly involved in (apparently) planning to implement new, anti spiking measures, so is absolutely educated on the use of Rohypnol to drug and sexually assault women. And the effect on the victims.

It's got fuck all to do with ignorance and everything to do with a complete absence of fear of consequences and an evident entitlement to consider women being raped as a suitable topic for comedy at a publicly funded Downing Street event hours after announcing the new measures.

He is media trained. He knows what spiking does, in depth. He just didn't give a shit.

Completely agree

@Charlie2121 "
Wait until you see what is about to replace them at the next general election. It’s a horrifying prospect."

Could you say more?

Ah yes. These being the Tories who "know what a woman is"? Maybe so but they clearly don't respect them.

Nothing worse could replace them, frankly!

(Unless it's the reform lot. God forbid! )

A lot of my family vote Conservative and what ever you think io that suggesting that they all condone date rape drugs is ridiculous and insulting

Don't be so stupid as to tar them all with the same brush

Exactly.