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Original poster

To be losing the will to live with staff who chosen a job with a long commute & then complain about it

644 replies

Benibidibici · 15/12/2023 13:21

I work in a well paid industry - think 6 figure salaries.

We've made really clear through hiring processes that roles are hybrid, not remote, we as a team really get a lot from collaborative working so we expect 2 days a week in the central office. There's flex about which days but we ask that people try to mostly hit the core days of tues/weds/thurs. As a line manager I'm not watching the clock and we are happy to play around with what time people start & finish - eg. One guy leaves at 4.30 to collect his kids by 5.30 & this is fine.

We've hired 3 people this year and made all this clear and they're all grumbling about their commutes and regularly asking to come in less. We offer what we can in terms of flexibility but when we insist we need them in 2 days, they are basically sulking. Its clear one of them in particular never had any intention of coming to the office more than a day or so every 2-3 weeks and expected to get away with remote working.

Its really frustrating. We were honest about what we needed and people just seem to think they can insist.

Why do people do this? One lady has moved 2 hours from our city 3 years ago, and during that time consistently keeps applying for and taking jobs here rather than in the large city where she now lives. Her husband also works in our industry and between them they'll have an income of £200k plus, so they aren't forced to live in a cheaper area.

Its really shit for me to have to go through the unpleasant process of monitoring people's attendance & imposing formal consequences etc (I'm not that kind of manager at all) because they took a job they don't want to turn up for.

What can I do to stop people doing this?

OP posts:
trytopullyoursocksup · 15/12/2023 13:26

I hate this. I am very pro all kinds of flexible working and I really rely on it. But I can feel the tolerance or acceptance of it being threatened because of some people who think it is a gross imposition that they ever be expected to physically turn up somewhere, ever.
Maybe there are jobs where you don't have to, and it is pointless - fine - let people like that apply for them, and do them. My job is not like that. What is like that about my job, is that we don't need to physically turn up somewhere 40 hours a week, but I can feel it will go back to that if people won't fucking show up a few days a week and it makes me really angry because I am a single parent and I will really struggle if our current flex goes away.

Plexie · 15/12/2023 13:28

State it clearly in the job advert. Put a reminder about hybrid working in the interview invitation. Remind them at the interview. Remind them when you offer them a job.

If they take the job and play up during their probation period, point out that if the job doesn't suit them, they are free to leave and look elsewhere. Do they have a shorter notice period during probation? Remind them of that, and if they're unhappy at least they'll be out the door quicker.

MintJulia · 15/12/2023 13:29

In our company, we just acknowledge that the younger ones want to be in the city and most of the older ones don't.

As long as they can get a train in, once a week, we work around that.

BlueberryVelvet · 15/12/2023 13:30

Your “collaborative working” approach universally negatively impacts women and the environment and so perhaps listen to your staff rather than imposing arbitrary quotas on them.

Office working is becoming increasingly obsolete and younger people are actively rejecting roles that are office based.

trytopullyoursocksup · 15/12/2023 13:31

Sorry. In answer to your question, as someone pretty junior who is feeling the irritation of managers about this, I would say:
1 - lay out ground rules in neutral terms and make it clear they apply to everyone. Do it in writing and do it in a meeting and post it, wherever you post information. (I am sure you have done this.) Announce how this will be monitored.

2 - Do the monitoring (sorry, it's a bore)
3 - take it up with individuals who do not comply. Do not moan generally at groups of people. Some of them, or even most of them, are doing their best. Every time you stand up in a meeting and complain about people not showing up, you are talking, by definition, to the people who have actually showed up. People who are trying hard will either feel bad for no reason, or angry, because they know they have no reason to feel bad. The others won't even "hear" you. Get to them directly. Performance manage it.
4 - get rid of those who won't play by the structures and processes you have put in place at stage 1. And don't penalise the workforce as a whole, either materially or by moaning and general disapproval being beamed out at a group level

cadburyegg · 15/12/2023 13:31

Decide what days are needed in the office. It sounds a bit vague from your post. If you give an inch then people will take a mile. I have to go into the office on Mondays and Tuesdays, as do my whole team, no exceptions. The rest of the week we are free to work wherever. I really like this arrangement because I know that everyone will be in on those 2 days.

jemenfous37 · 15/12/2023 13:32

Sack them. They knew the Ts and Cs.
Sick of having to pander to these snowflakes

PastelHouses · 15/12/2023 13:32

This reply has been deleted

This is a goady troll so we've removed their posts.

saltinesandcoffeecups · 15/12/2023 13:33

I’m with you OP… for the most part I’m ambivalent to wfh…I mostly do now, but if I was told to haul my cheeks in to the office I would and that would be that. Really the only reason I don’t do it now is that I report through a different structure as the people in my office so don’t interact with for business… so it really makes zero difference for collaboration where I am sitting.

I just can’t understand the thinking of accepting a job under clear terms and then bitching and moaning about it.

Peachtails · 15/12/2023 13:33

It's a difficult one. The only thing I'd add is if that all of your 3 new starters have mentioned it maybe it wasn't mad as clear as it could have been? Or if you've tried to sell the flexibility of the role too much to compensate it might have caused confusion?
If you're being too flexible in other areas though (days times etc) if gives room for people to push their chances even more.

If you took the flexibility of choosing the 2 days away and gave set days for the office that could help, so then they can't say I'll be in Thursday for instance then not turn up until the following Tuesday.

What an employees household/combined income is shouldn't really come into it to be fair.

Xmasbaby11 · 15/12/2023 13:34

We have a few people like this at my work. They complain about the time, the cost and the unreliability of trains. None of which have changed considerably since they applied for the job! I genuinely think they believe the commute should be included in their working hours!

I think people have got used to the benefits of wfh and they don't want to go back to commuting - but it would never have lasted forever as we are teachers (university) and most of our work is face to face teaching!

sweetpickle23 · 15/12/2023 13:35

This reply has been deleted

This is a goady troll so we've removed their posts.

Not bollocks at all- stats show that enforced office working overwhelmingly benefits men and people who are not caregivers, or who have disabilities. I don't agree with mandating any amount of days in the office for this reason.

However in terms of the OP's question- if they took the job knowing the terms and are now complaining then that's their problem.

trytopullyoursocksup · 15/12/2023 13:35

Thinking that work involves physically turning up somewhere only negatively impacts women - that's only if we accept as a society that the solution to childcare and housework needing to be done, is to expect women to do it all for free around paid work, probably multi tasking. Let her go to the office, concentrate on her job, interact with her team on equal terms, and earn enough to get a cleaner (well paid and well treated). Or let her man do it

UsingChangeofName · 15/12/2023 13:35

Your “collaborative working” approach universally negatively impacts women and the environment and so perhaps listen to your staff rather than imposing arbitrary quotas on them.

Don't be ridiculous.

As the first reply said (very well). All jobs are different. Some do well from being done as a team / working collaboratively in person and others don't need that. If you - man or woman - apply for a job that is clear and transparent up front, then you do so knowing what the T&C are.

Uncooperativefingers · 15/12/2023 13:36

BlueberryVelvet · 15/12/2023 13:30

Your “collaborative working” approach universally negatively impacts women and the environment and so perhaps listen to your staff rather than imposing arbitrary quotas on them.

Office working is becoming increasingly obsolete and younger people are actively rejecting roles that are office based.

Not in my experience. I find It's the graduates and early career cohort who are willingly kn the office 4/5 days a week, while the mid-careers are want to be left alone at home. The old timers are usually in 3 days a week.

Our rule is hybrid (office twice a week), but be where the work needs you to be. So if that means uk-wide travel, doing that would count as an office day

CrispsandCheeseSandwich · 15/12/2023 13:36

We've hired 3 people this year and made all this clear and they're all grumbling

Are you sure you made it really clear?

I mean, they're in the wrong. But you might want to look at whether you are making it as clear as you think, if all the people you've hired this year have grumbled.

Shelby2010 · 15/12/2023 13:38

When advertising/interviewing tell them it’s 3 days in the office (Tues-Thurs) but they can opt to work from home Mon & Friday.

This should weed out the people who were never intending to come in regularly.

I agree with a previous poster that it might be easier to have 2 set days for everyone.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 15/12/2023 13:38

trytopullyoursocksup · 15/12/2023 13:35

Thinking that work involves physically turning up somewhere only negatively impacts women - that's only if we accept as a society that the solution to childcare and housework needing to be done, is to expect women to do it all for free around paid work, probably multi tasking. Let her go to the office, concentrate on her job, interact with her team on equal terms, and earn enough to get a cleaner (well paid and well treated). Or let her man do it

This

Two days in the office which can be flexible in terms of actual days and times would have been a dream for me.

Not every working mum minds doing this especially if the finer details can be negotiated.

QueenMegan · 15/12/2023 13:39

Stick to your guns. Simple

Hardbackwriter · 15/12/2023 13:39

I think the commutes are probably a bit of a red herring. They don't want to work in the office; they probably massively resent the commute as a result but it isn't the root problem. The furthest anyone in the team I manage lives from our office is 40 minutes and the people who are most reluctant to come in live less than 15 minutes away. They wouldn't want to work in the office even if it were next door.

UsingChangeofName · 15/12/2023 13:39

trytopullyoursocksup · 15/12/2023 13:26

I hate this. I am very pro all kinds of flexible working and I really rely on it. But I can feel the tolerance or acceptance of it being threatened because of some people who think it is a gross imposition that they ever be expected to physically turn up somewhere, ever.
Maybe there are jobs where you don't have to, and it is pointless - fine - let people like that apply for them, and do them. My job is not like that. What is like that about my job, is that we don't need to physically turn up somewhere 40 hours a week, but I can feel it will go back to that if people won't fucking show up a few days a week and it makes me really angry because I am a single parent and I will really struggle if our current flex goes away.

Totally agree with this - an excellent post

I just can’t understand the thinking of accepting a job under clear terms and then bitching and moaning about it.

Me neither.

There was a thread yesterday where a poster was wondering if she could negotiate a much bigger salary than offered from a Charity she wanted to work for, and whether she could claim back the £200 it was going to cost her every week to go in to the office. The being present in the office one day a week was clear from the start, and she chose to still apply despite feeling it was inconvenient. Confused
I don't understand what goes through people's minds sometimes.

Hont1986 · 15/12/2023 13:39

we as a team really get a lot from collaborative working so we expect 2 days a week in the central office

I hear this line get thrown around a lot by upper management and frankly I've never found that the rank and file employees actually agree. I suspect the real reasoning is somewhere in between "we have to pay to rent and heat the building so we don't want that to be a waste" and "working from home isn't real working, they're just dossing".

cheezncrackers · 15/12/2023 13:40

What can I do to stop people doing this?

Only hire people who live locally?

Original poster
Benibidibici · 15/12/2023 13:40

Your “collaborative working” approach universally negatively impacts women and the environment and so perhaps listen to your staff rather than imposing arbitrary quotas on them.Office working is becoming increasingly obsolete and younger people are actively rejecting roles that are office based.

Im a woman and a parent of young kids and its fine. We genuinely need some time working together as a team including training for our youngest staff, we've worked out 2 days is the minimum we can manage.

Im totally pro flexibility but we need people to come in sometimes & we are super clear on the job ad etc

OP posts:
sweetpickle23 · 15/12/2023 13:41

Also it's perfectly possible to work collaboratively not in person- if as a company you can't do this effectively, you need to look at your processes.

Again though that isn't relevant if you've made you office pattern clear when advertising the roles.