To be losing the will to live with staff who chosen a job with a long commute & then complain about it

[Benibidibici]

I work in a well paid industry - think 6 figure salaries.

We've made really clear through hiring processes that roles are hybrid, not remote, we as a team really get a lot from collaborative working so we expect 2 days a week in the central office. There's flex about which days but we ask that people try to mostly hit the core days of tues/weds/thurs. As a line manager I'm not watching the clock and we are happy to play around with what time people start & finish - eg. One guy leaves at 4.30 to collect his kids by 5.30 & this is fine.

We've hired 3 people this year and made all this clear and they're all grumbling about their commutes and regularly asking to come in less. We offer what we can in terms of flexibility but when we insist we need them in 2 days, they are basically sulking. Its clear one of them in particular never had any intention of coming to the office more than a day or so every 2-3 weeks and expected to get away with remote working.

Its really frustrating. We were honest about what we needed and people just seem to think they can insist.

Why do people do this? One lady has moved 2 hours from our city 3 years ago, and during that time consistently keeps applying for and taking jobs here rather than in the large city where she now lives. Her husband also works in our industry and between them they'll have an income of £200k plus, so they aren't forced to live in a cheaper area.

Its really shit for me to have to go through the unpleasant process of monitoring people's attendance & imposing formal consequences etc (I'm not that kind of manager at all) because they took a job they don't want to turn up for.

What can I do to stop people doing this?

Okay, well with everything you've said it sounds like the only way to really improve things is to go to back to FT in the office with no exceptions. Because any degree of flexibility leads to piss taking.

I don’t think two days a week is a massive ask. But I’d make sure to at the days people are in there is reason to be. Make sure meetings are on those days nothing worse than travelling into the office and sitting on teams calls all day.

We have to go in two days a week and some days I turn up and no one from my team is in and I just think what is the point… so maybe make people come in on the same days. Yea it’s nice you’re flexible about what days but if the rest of the team isn’t in then what’s the point.

My DC started his career in lockdown and worked fully remotely until recently. He sees no disadvantages but I can see the gaps in mentoring, building relationships and and socialising.

Except in this case they aren’t rejecting office based roles, they have accepted a hybrid role and then refused to adhere to the model they agreed to.

It is not unreasonable to expect two days a week in the office. Many roles require or hugely benefit from a collaborative approach which cannot be fully moved online. It’s also often a lot harder for employees who are new to the workforce to find their feet without some in person mentoring.

There are fully remote roles for people who would like them, but if you accept a hybrid role you should be prepared to meet the obligations you’ve agreed to.

This is my manager. As a result our team is never in the office. Ever. Its really shit and definitely has an impact.

But the priority is my manager not having to commute apparently...

Genuine question. Has the commute become more difficult? Train route alterations/cancellations, extended road works etc.

No. We are ok with people missing an odd day for stuff like this - life happens.

Plus is the need to be in, really a need or has it just become a habit with “off the peg” reasoning which has had its day. Has technology changed since these “rules” were introduced?

Tech has been same for about 10 years. It really is a need. There are things we work on where we are sharing ideas and discussing sensitive content, some is commercially sensitive. Also sometimes the visual pieces don't work well on screen.

Finally, are these your “rules” or imposed from above?

No - there are some other teams in the company who are fully remote & we have physical locations were staff don't wfh at all. We agreed for our team 2 days worked. The 2 main training managers come in 3 by choice as its important for the younger staff to have them around so they make sure at least one of them covers every day + have an overlap day when both are in.

It is a pain to have to monitor people, because you expect professionals to adhere to their contract without needing to be babysat, but sounds as though it can't be helped in this case. They need to know it's not optional and that they can and will be sacked if they aren't willing to do it. (Still, at least it's easier to do that if they haven't been with you for long).

"You may work from home more than the mandatory 2 days a week, but those additional days will not be remunerated"

It is a pain to have to monitor people, because you expect professionals to adhere to their contract without needing to be babysat

I also want to respect & trust team, i do not like to micromanage, it makes me really uncomfortable

My company moved office during the pandemic so it's now in a rubbish location that's a pain to get to. Everything is costing more these days including train fares and they have announced they want everyone back in 4 days next year.
The reason is "collaboration" when in reality we are scattered around the world so half the time you're travelling in to sit on a call with people not even in the same country. HR trotted this one out to me when I complained about being forced to go in on the one day a week nobody else in my department is in. It was just me and the cleaner. I was told that an "unexpected chat at the water cooler could change the course of my day". Whilst the cleaner is nice and we did chat it was hardly a day changer.

What I'm most dreading is going back to the days where everyone is full of resentment for those of us with flexible working arrangements already in place. It will be back to the mothers having to rush off home for collection of kids and having to decline late meetings etc.

Every workplace and job is different but I really believe that it is true that some jobs need time together. In person. It is also much harder for people to learn and grow remotely as so much learning happens by osmosis - being around others and observing. It's how we learn best, even as children, by mirroring.

I have worked at offices where there was a set NUMBER of days but no set DAYS. I found a) this was unhelpful - the point isn't to be in the office, it doesn't matter where your body is in space; the point is simultaneity and to be together and b) it can cause people to feel that coming in is pointless, if they come in and others aren't there that day so they're on Zoom all day anyway. This increases the likelihood they won't bother coming in in future. C) it's hard to monitor without using some form of tracking system.

Much better has been offices with specific fixed days. Ie you must be in Tues-Thurs. Clarity, guaranteed togetherness and also much easier to monitor casually. You can easily see if people are there or not and know if they should be, rather than thinking, oh maybe they were here the day I wasn't...

I would suggest moving to the second system for all the above reasons. This will make straightforward conversations about whether or not people are complying with the terms of their role much easier.

Definite target the individuals

They're not fulfilling their contract - do the monitoring and take it up with them

Too many companies are looking at whole groups because they can't face dealing with individuals, then everyone suffers.

I agree with PP that if you want people to come in, it has to be on the same day, so that there is some point to them coming in . Coming in and no-one else being in is pointless.

Meta did research on their pandemic engineering starters (engineering being the classic WFH type role) and found that staff that started 100% remote were poorer performers than people who started in person then went remote and people who come in, in person. Both of the latter performed equally well. The training/culture element is far bigger than what most people realise.

We ask people who are grad managers to commit to 3 days a week in the office else it’s pretty unfair on our grads.

We also have the classic lived in London pre pandemic, moved to the midlands/North/Devon in the pandemic and has since realised it’s really expensive and not at all conducive to work/life balance types who are moaning endlessly about the 3 day a week in the office mandate. Anyone who made big life choices based on two very strange years really only have themselves to blame.

You're not being unreasonable- I have a similar job and was very clear that I could come in 2 days a week but not more.

What works for me is having defined days, then everyone knows where I will be and I can't convince myself on a rainy Wednesday that I may as well stay home!

Do your team sit together? We do hot decking and I will admit i find it frustrating when I traipse in and find myself sitting with some random and talking to the team via teams anyway

Week54 actually i have someone in my team who is gagging to say something like this, maybe i will say go ahead

Sometimes it’s a case of people feeling that the goalposts changed once they actually got the job. When you recruit, are you making it very clear that you require 2 days a week in the office as a minimum and that those must be on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday? Are you using a recruitment agency that misleads jobseekers (and just talks about flexible working) to get enough suitable CVs to you?

The most frequent hybrid job ads I see in my industry say something like ‘We encourage flexible hybrid working on a 3-days office/2-days at home basis. You are welcome to work from the office more than 3 days a week if you prefer. The in-office core days for this role are Tuesday and Weds.’

Your options seem to be reach some sort of a compromise or insist they attend in person, and then fire them if they don't.

But many more experienced workers won't travel any more than is strictly necessary. I will happily travel 500 miles to do a round of customer meetings and a conference over three days, but I won't travel to the office more than once a week just to tick a box, because it's expensive, a waste of time and I work perfectly effectively with my colleagues on-line.

I'd rather resign and I know I can get an equivalent job with a more sensible wfh policy.

Can you find all the staff you need locally?

I manage it with three kids, a 3 hour door to door commute into the city, twice a week MINIMUM on 50k (although husbands income takes us up to 90).

HOW are they struggling with this on 100k and when can you offer me a job OP? Because I will snap your hand off for the 50k pay rise and only 2 days in office!!! Hell, I'd chuck in an extra in office day for that salary.

I used to have this a lot. People simply think things will be fine e.g. they will work in the office less, or the commute will not be so bad etc. They then are hit with the hard reality. I even had one guy tell me he wished he'd taken my advice to not move further away as he was now commuting 3 hours a day.

Speak for yourself. I love going into the office and choose to be there full time. There’s no way I want to work stuck in the house feeling obligated to load the dishwasher or put laundry on. I live locally to my office and love the walk there as well.

I work in a creative industry and a big part of collaborative working is being in the same physical space.

If you run a business (and I have) it's entirely up to the business to decide what level of 'in the office' they want to function at it's best- make it very clear on job adverts that it's not a wfh position with the very occasional day in - if that's what someone wants then they need to be applying to 'fully remote jobs' not messing their employer around. Yes it may limit your candidate options - but that is the business prerogative - and it's not up to individuals to say they are being unreasonable. Some jobs can work well mainly from home or even fully and some can't for various reasons- and it's up to the business to decide the terms of employment and base. Accept the deal or don't take the job

I voted YABU as it doesn’t sound like you want to actually manage your staff.

Of course it’s shit when you have to tell them to get into line or fuck off, but that’s your job!