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AIBU?

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Original poster

Buy BTL house for postcode for secondary? Please help

331 replies

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:26

Please tell me if I got it right or wrong in my head! I think there is probably something I have not considered well.

We live in a house which we bought and we have a mortgage.

We have saved around £100k which we can use for a deposit for another house.

Our kids are early KS1 years but we don't have a good comp secondary around - we live in a heavy grammar area.

Would it be a strategic move to buy a second property close to a good comp secondary, have a buy-to-let mortgage on it , and use this address for the secondary applications? It will work well for most grammars anyway.

Would it matter that someone else would live in there as the mortgage would be buy-to-let? If we get a place to that school we will move there but since the primary is next door to our house we wouldn't like to move from now. And we don't want the money to sit in our account forever.

This house would be used from us as a back-up if our kids won't do well in the grammar results.

AIBU - There is something I am missing and we can't use an address that someone else lives even if we own that property

AINBU - You can use the address of your hypothetical BTL property

OP posts:
ColettesEarrings · 15/12/2023 13:00

Ask the bloody tutor - how on earth are we supposed to know what compete strangers might think in a few years time?! Your whole approach to this is just very very weird!

Whattodo112222 · 15/12/2023 13:00

Its quite simple as the address you use for school applications has to be the primary address for the child. Legally, that's what the local authority will accept and may ask for proof of.

Fraudulent applications always find a way of getting found out and the offer will be rescinded and you'll be up shits creek completely then.

Mortgages are irrespective.

You must use the primary address of your child's residence.

OhmygodDont · 15/12/2023 13:01

Move into the new house in August/September properly. Ready for the applications and basically yes you just stay there. You do the commute for the younger child or move their primary. Because if you move back they won’t get the same secondary anyway so you’ve have to get again move.

VisionsOfSplendour · 15/12/2023 13:01

Bobsyouraunty · 15/12/2023 12:59

I don’t know if Mumsnet was the best place to post this question…

Edited

What does that even mean Karen's what?

NoSquirrels · 15/12/2023 13:02

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:58

@PuttingDownRoots would that work with Grammar tuition? Our DC will sit the grammar test as I said and the end of year 5 is when kids are tutored, having mock exams etc.

Would his tutor want to drive 30' to our "new" property? I mean what do people do in this situation?

If we move in mid September year 6 i.e. the week following the 11+ exam would that still work for the applications?

Check the application dates.

Ask the tutor.

Remember if you’re selling and buying it takes a while.

blankittyblank · 15/12/2023 13:02

CurlewKate · 15/12/2023 13:00

How can you make it work? Maybe by not being hysterical about schools....

This too.

Lanneederniere · 15/12/2023 13:02

The lying, cheating buyers of my former house did exactly this, pretended to live there, and got their children into the excellent local comprehensive whilst actually living in a much worse area. They then let the house out to people with no children, and own it to this day, therefore they got away with it.

LIZS · 15/12/2023 13:02

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:58

@PuttingDownRoots would that work with Grammar tuition? Our DC will sit the grammar test as I said and the end of year 5 is when kids are tutored, having mock exams etc.

Would his tutor want to drive 30' to our "new" property? I mean what do people do in this situation?

If we move in mid September year 6 i.e. the week following the 11+ exam would that still work for the applications?

That depends on the LA . Bucks are particularly tight on their rules about timing of any moves and additional properties. However Kent has some grammar places for out of area high scorers. The Sutton/Wallington grammars are super-selective irrespective of address.

Twiglets1 · 15/12/2023 13:03

So convoluted ....why don't you just sell your current house and buy another one in the catchment area of the school you want your children to go to.

It's the middle class way!

MabelMaybe · 15/12/2023 13:04

@Schoolhousemystery , have you looked at catchment primaries for the secondary you want, with a view to moving one / both of your DC to an "in catchment" primary school, and house, before secondary admission? Our catchment secondary was failed by OFSTED the autumn we had to choose secondary places, so I do get your sense of panic. I'd focus on the secondary school, and move primary to make that work.

cestlavielife · 15/12/2023 13:04

If you pay enough i am sure your tutor will commute !

Would his tutor want to drive 30' to our "new" property? I mean what do people do in this situation

1.Work out where you want to live for schools

  1. Move there

Everything is a compromise
If your dc is bright they will be fine whereever
If you find they need special input it all might change anyway . You can only plan so much, life gets in the way

(I guess you could legally divorce and live separately and one of you register dc gp etcetc at "favorable" address...but the fraud investigators might check ...)

If you can afford to buy and run another property you could look at private as a back up option

StillWantingADog · 15/12/2023 13:06

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:53

I came here for some serious advice. When I started the thread I didn't have a clue about all this.

Please try to help and don't be judgemental. I am not stupid enough to do something illegal, I am just trying to understand the options.

So, what people do? If we relocate on time, then we would have to live to this property for the duration of year 6 essentially? So to move the summer before the applications?

And as I have a younger kid who would be year 3 in our current primary, would I have to drive 30' back and forth everyday for this year?

Is this what people do to secure a good school for their kids?

Yea this is exactly what people do.
we are lucky to live in a good catchment for both primary and secondary but I think that’s pure luck more than anything else

SmartiesAndFlakes · 15/12/2023 13:07

I am surprised anyone doesn’t realise this is fraud / not permitted. It is absolutely not ok for rich middle classes to steal a school place from a deserving less wealthy child who lives nearby like this.

TallulahBetty · 15/12/2023 13:07

Lol. Nice try. Reported.

NoSquirrels · 15/12/2023 13:08

Also, just wondering - if you’re fairly convinced your DC won’t get into a grammar school - you’re talking about speculatively buying a house, after all! - then why bother with tutors and all that stress for the 11+? Genuine question.

titchy · 15/12/2023 13:10

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:43

Ok. Thank you all!

Buy to let is not going to work, thank you, I didn't know it.

We need to live there, I understand that too.

The only solution based on your responses would be to keep the second house empty before the application, during and until we get the result.

Pay the council tax on our names and move GP.

A financial question please - Can we arrange with the bank to have two properties with mortgage and none of them to be BTL?

If not, I guess only cash buyers could "cheat" the system?

Bloody hell you really don't get it do you?! Wouldn't it be far easier to tutor your kids so they get into the grammar?

Or sell where you are now?

You cannot have a spare home just in case (though you'll have the 11+ results before you apply so not sure what actual issue is tbh). They won't just check council tax. They can check CB records, primary school records, land registry records, ask to see what address your GP has. Heck they can even employ private investigators to see where go each evening. And it's not up to them to prove fraud - the onus is on you to prove the address provided is genuine.

Original poster
Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 13:11

Thank you all, really helpful, although some thought that I want to do something illegal... absolutely not the case! I just had no clue about all this and I thought to ask. I will also check what the council says and the admission criteria of the comp school.

So, the take away and only options are:

  1. Move at the end of Y5 the latest
  2. Go to our local comp if needed and don't move

Of course all that if no success at a Grammar - which by the way it's not just a matter of tuition, the kid may have a bad day, be unwell, whatever. The success is not guaranteed if a kid is tutored.

OP posts:
CMMM · 15/12/2023 13:13

We live in grammar school county. the schools individually set policies on documentation required. You have to show valid council tax bill as standard but 2 of the grammars want proof that you have lived in your house as a minimum since Easter of year 5. we had relocated counties for work 3 years before year 6 and had to show a completion certificate of sale, our rental agreement and termination notice and then our house purchase and current council tax to prove we weren't gaming the system. I have no problems with this because it prevents people who can afford it from buying a second house and committing fraud!

DrMarshaFieldstone · 15/12/2023 13:13

What do people do? They move house with an eye on catchments and then they live in that house.

It is pretty strange that the first two plans were either to hoard property to 'strategically' hedge your bets or commit fraud rather than just...moving house.

baileybrosbuildingandloan · 15/12/2023 13:13

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:31

How can we make it work then?

We live next to the primary and it would be silly to move 30min away before we even know which will be the secondary our DC will go to...

Can we have two mortgages on both houses and both of them to be on our name, without renting any of them? i.e. the second property to be empty?

You're seriously asking how to commit fraud?

On a parenting forum?

How to fraudulently get a school place?

The entitlement of some people astounds me.

shepherdsangeldelight · 15/12/2023 13:14

If your DC are early KS1, you have no idea what the schools might be like by the time they get to the right age anyway. So buying now is a bit pre-emptive.

LIZS · 15/12/2023 13:14

I think Bucks expect you to be situ earlier than end year 5. Also bear in mind registration deadlines for 11+ exams may be after Easter.

wishingiwas20something · 15/12/2023 13:14

You have to live at the property- there are lots of checks and if they discover you’re lying - the place is rescinded. Sounds like you need to move and use the 100k to buy a house in catchment…

Boomboom22 · 15/12/2023 13:14

People move house. Or they buy somewhere with good secondaries and primaries.
Or the kids commute, from my rural village I could have put about 12 different schools, in two big towns, the out of towns and the trainlines. Or 6 grammars if passed. Of course I put 4 non grammars for the one who didn't pass, he gets a train 20 mins as the non grammars here are not great travel wise or results. They had loads of spaces due to a different school near there closing so got 1st place even though 1 stop further than used to get spaces.
The 2nd passed so put 4 grammars, waiting to hear but will likely get no 1 as nearest, if not no 2 is my school which is guaranteed as teacher staff child so distance irrelevant.

What I'm saying is research all possible schools on local bus lines and train lines, check the admissions criteria and distance admitted. My nearest over my dead body comp is only 1.5 miles despite being the only rural school so I wouldn't get a place anyway. Some schools have priority for feeder schools in the same trust. Some are brilliant but have a bad rep from 20 years ago so you can get in from far away. Expect it to take many hours. Use the gov website and school websites to narrow it down, call the schools. You can learn a lot from receptionists and admissions officers, plus if you can get through.

NotFastButFurious · 15/12/2023 13:14

How can we make it work then?

  1. you think about such things before buying a house
  2. you move house - not necessarily now but the time your eldest is at the end of year 4 / early year 5 you'll have a pretty good idea of whether or not they're grammar school material or not. I would be cautious of tutoring in order to get in as the kids who are often struggle when they get there and being bottom of the pile in a grammar school is worse than being top of the pile in a comp.
  3. you hope your kids get in the grammar school
  4. you invest that £100k wisely and pay for them to go private
  5. bear in the mind that schools change over time and academic results aren't everything - a comprehensive in an area with grammar schools will always have lower than average results because the top % have been creamed off. You need to look at "value added" rather than straight results. That said, I know people who've gone to comps in grammar school areas and they have just as good results as some who went to the grammar school. If your child isn't very academic they often have a better range of subject options too.