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AIBU?

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Original poster

Buy BTL house for postcode for secondary? Please help

331 replies

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:26

Please tell me if I got it right or wrong in my head! I think there is probably something I have not considered well.

We live in a house which we bought and we have a mortgage.

We have saved around £100k which we can use for a deposit for another house.

Our kids are early KS1 years but we don't have a good comp secondary around - we live in a heavy grammar area.

Would it be a strategic move to buy a second property close to a good comp secondary, have a buy-to-let mortgage on it , and use this address for the secondary applications? It will work well for most grammars anyway.

Would it matter that someone else would live in there as the mortgage would be buy-to-let? If we get a place to that school we will move there but since the primary is next door to our house we wouldn't like to move from now. And we don't want the money to sit in our account forever.

This house would be used from us as a back-up if our kids won't do well in the grammar results.

AIBU - There is something I am missing and we can't use an address that someone else lives even if we own that property

AINBU - You can use the address of your hypothetical BTL property

OP posts:
Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 16/12/2023 10:18

usernother · 16/12/2023 10:12

OP you say you didn't know what you were asking about was wrong. But you must have known it was morally wrong. That's why you are being judged. And quite rightly.

I don’t like to be unfair and OP has got piled on. But if even parents when they bought their house abroad (holidays), if you wanted to send children to school there you look into the rules.

I’m quite surprised as I said before, especially as OP seems educated, that she didn’t google or ask other parents about this.

As a few of us have said, yes it’s a lottery getting kids into a decent school, yes, some of us move closer to better schools. But flouting the rules and hoping you won’t get found out (apart from one person’s LA which didn’t look into this) is rare. The councils in our area are hot on charging you extra for anything you do wrong so if OP did this it’s a nice little money earner for the council.

aramox1 · 16/12/2023 16:35

The system is planned precisely to stop you gaming it. You aren't meant to have a free choice- you're meant to go to one of your nearest schools.

greengreengrass25 · 16/12/2023 17:54

GreatGateauxsby · 16/12/2023 08:23

Honestly if this is what you want to do just do it "properly"

Friends of ours did this. They bought a BTL. They let it out for X years (let's say oldest mid way through year 5...) Then moved into the BTL.
They let the primary home.... Stayed in BTL for 3 and a bit years.
Sold it once youngest was in year 7 and paid NO CGT...
Moved back into main family home after tenants moved out and they had finished renovating it

That said.... if you can afford to have a mortgaged house sitting empty for years you can prob afford private school
🤷‍♀️

Edited

Yes the CGT issue is awful

how do they get away with it?

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 16/12/2023 22:47

I think that there is no money in the education system and the worse area you live in, the worse is the education, on the whole. I don't blame anyone for trying to do the best for their child, by whatever legal way is within their means. I'm not interested in people judging others whilst they have good options for themselves and their own children.

DragonMama3 · 16/12/2023 23:59

CurlewKate · 16/12/2023 07:01

@Hughs "Grammar schools raise attainment by a third of a grade on average.

Is that all? It seems very low, hardly worth the bother and the tutoring costs."

Because grades are a smoke screen. The sort of kids who get into grammar schools would do just as well anywhere else. People talk about grades because the real reasons are less ...socially acceptable.

Have you seen some of the most underperforming secondaries? I have. Trust me, those bright kids wouldn't attain the same anywhere else.

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:26

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:37

But they don't know where we will be living if we don't have any BTL mortgage. Like a "holiday house" and another one! They don't where we actually live.

I can't see why this wouldn't work. Just make sure to register your address e.g. on the electoral register for the house near the school you want to send your kids to.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 17/12/2023 00:41

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:26

I can't see why this wouldn't work. Just make sure to register your address e.g. on the electoral register for the house near the school you want to send your kids to.

Show quote history

Because schools aren’t as stupid as you think they are.

they’ve seen every scam and trick in the book. The more oversubscribed and popular the school, the more they’ll be aware of people trying to pull stunts like this.

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:46

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 17/12/2023 00:41

Because schools aren’t as stupid as you think they are.

they’ve seen every scam and trick in the book. The more oversubscribed and popular the school, the more they’ll be aware of people trying to pull stunts like this.

Edited
Show quote history

I've seen it happen a number of times in the (only) rated school around here. From renting temporarily, to using parent's addresses, to using friend's addresses. A second property, especially an empty one, will be fine. There is nothing to say one of the parents say they live in one and the other parent in the other and the child splits their time between both parents.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 17/12/2023 00:48

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:46

I've seen it happen a number of times in the (only) rated school around here. From renting temporarily, to using parent's addresses, to using friend's addresses. A second property, especially an empty one, will be fine. There is nothing to say one of the parents say they live in one and the other parent in the other and the child splits their time between both parents.

Show quote history

It’ll be fine - except for the numerous examples of times when it wasn’t…

But if you’re fine with encouraging fraud then good for you!

StaunchMomma · 17/12/2023 00:50

Grammars take proof of residence really seriously.

Proof must be shown that both parents and child live at the address via council tax bill/bank accounts/GP registration & medical appointments etc.

If you and the child don't actually live where you say you do, you're committing fraud. If you are reported by anyone then your child automatically loses their place, even once started there.

If you really want to 'make it work', you will need to move.

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:57

Could you live there for a year OP? Then return to the original house?

Rent it out until the year before your child is due to begin. Then you/your husband register a few bills in one of your names using that address and either move in or leave it empty and then after your child has been in the school over six months, go back to the original house fully?

A lot of people do this for secondary school places. Its an open conversation in my primary school.

Travelling thirty minutes isn't that long in the mornings either. We live thirty minutes away from our primary school and I've known people to travel fifty minutes each way daily.

StaunchMomma · 17/12/2023 01:19

I am not stupid enough to do something illegal, I am just trying to understand the options.

Hopefully by now you understand that your ONLY option is to move into a house within catchment of the grammar school. Not for a couple of months with a dodgy change of GP - permanently. There are no loop-holes.

As an aside, many tutors require the child to travel to them, rather than coming to your home. You might find the best ones fill up quickly and have waiting lists. We registered interest with ours 18 months prior then at the end of year 4 our DS took an entry test with that tutor, after which she confirmed if he would be offered a place with her. She turned down quite a few kids.

Most councils & grammars have general info re the 11+ process and each school's specific requirements on their websites. It's definitely worth familiarising yourself with these. There are also 11+ forums with sections for each county/school.

StaunchMomma · 17/12/2023 01:20

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 17/12/2023 00:57

Could you live there for a year OP? Then return to the original house?

Rent it out until the year before your child is due to begin. Then you/your husband register a few bills in one of your names using that address and either move in or leave it empty and then after your child has been in the school over six months, go back to the original house fully?

A lot of people do this for secondary school places. Its an open conversation in my primary school.

Travelling thirty minutes isn't that long in the mornings either. We live thirty minutes away from our primary school and I've known people to travel fifty minutes each way daily.

Edited

The child may lose their place if they move out of catchment after taking a school place.

Grammars are really hot on this because they know parents will try to bend the rules. They cannot be seen to be bending the rules for any pupil or those on the waiting list would absolutely sue.

StaunchMomma · 17/12/2023 01:24

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 17/12/2023 00:48

It’ll be fine - except for the numerous examples of times when it wasn’t…

But if you’re fine with encouraging fraud then good for you!

Edited
Show quote history

That might work for secondaries - for grammar it absolutely won't.

BouncingJAS · 17/12/2023 01:36

This thread made me laugh.

OP, you are asking about a "strategy" that has been tried to death over the last decade.

The authorities are more than aware about this "strategy".

Only option you have is to move to the place you think will have a better school option.

Thats a risk for you, but its also the only one that will work.

Peasand · 17/12/2023 01:42

My friend works for a school and her job is to check out that applicants actually live at the address they claim. They will look at which primary school your children are at and then draw their own conclusions, a quick call to the school and a look at the electoral register to verify.

redalex261 · 17/12/2023 01:50

Dear god. You are actually on here asking for advice on how to perpetrate a fraud. To be clear, steal a school place you have no entitlement to. When you do this I really, really hope someone shops you in. And I really really hope you get caught. If there is any justice your case would make a lovely story for the local paper, giving you a lovely red face and set a fabulous example for the children you are so keen to have mix with a better class of schoolmate.

TheSkyWasMadeOfAmethyst · 17/12/2023 01:53

Schoolhousemystery · 15/12/2023 12:46

The problem is that this second house is about 30min drive from the primary school! How would that work? Would we drive 30min every day for two years back and forth in order to get an address for an application?

Yes, that's literally the only way to do it. My eldest is in Y6 and a few families have moved a fair distance away in the last year or 2 in order to get into their preferred secondary schools.

Skyisbluegrassisgreen · 17/12/2023 02:14

No it’s not as they plan to live there if the children end up going to a school local to that house.

sashh · 17/12/2023 03:42

VisionsOfSplendour · 15/12/2023 12:47

That's pretty unusual isn't it? Are you in England?

Show quote history

Very common with faith schools. The one I attended i the 1980s still has feeder schools including one in another town.

OP

If your children are only 5 or 6 then a lot can happen to schools between then and now.

Dacadactyl · 17/12/2023 06:43

You'd be mad to try it.

They check everything in my council. They checked the address the primary had down for us matched the one on our application (it didnt, but this was an oversight on my part and not down to any dodgy dealings so i had to go with proof to the primary school) Also they checked council tax records matched as well.

shepherdsangeldelight · 17/12/2023 12:10

(Partly as the OP states she is unfamiliar with the England education system) I am wondering if the local school is actually bad. A secondary modern school in a grammar area is not going to get anywhere near the results of a grammar school or even the results of a genuinely comprehensive school, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a solid body of higher achieving students (perhaps who just missed out on the grammar, or who had a bad day with the test, or who were bright but didn't have parents who could afford 2 years of 11+ tuition) and good teaching.

izimbra · 21/12/2023 10:47

This thread is a testament to why secondary schools need to start using fair banding admissions combined with lottery selection. Selection by postcode at secondary is a huge problem for children from poorer families.

justteanbiscuits · 21/12/2023 11:25

If you can afford to pay two mortgages, why not just send your kids to private secondary? Surely that solves all the problems. Sounds like money is no issue.

You are also banking on your kids passing the 11+ and getting into these schools you are planning for. If it's Kent, you might not even get into the specific one you plan to buy near, it might be a different one.

CurlewKate · 21/12/2023 13:24

"Have you seen some of the most underperforming secondaries? I have. Trust me, those bright kids wouldn't attain the same anywhere else."

They would and do. Check the results for high attainers.

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