Page 7 | To have discharged myself from A&E?

AandEnightmare · 2023-12-15T07:03:40+00:00

As the username suggests… I attended A&E with numbness is my hand, pins and needles in both arms and legs, blurred vision and extreme stuff neck pain. Stroke nurse was happy it wasn’t a stroke but wanted an MRI as did A&E consultant. Both concerned about MS and tragically I then urinated myself in the A&E waiting room where I was left on a wooden chair for 8 hours. i asked for a change of clothes, just a hospital gown and was told until I was seen by a neurologist who agreed to book me in; this wasn’t possible. I have long covid and extreme fatigue and pain at the best of times and I was in tears in the waiting room crippled in pain and exhaustion and was just told repeatedly that only a neurologist could determine if an MRI was needed as an emergency or as an outpatient and on the time of leaving, after 7 hours, I was number 13 on the list so expected to be seen by this evening. I will ring my GP as soon as open but I’ve never had such a terrible experience in a hospital in my life! i feel shocked

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 14:49

rainbowunicorn · 15/12/2023 10:52

I hope, if you really do work for the NHS that you show a bit more care, empathy and compassion for the people that you interact with than you have shown here.

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Love how you can ascertain how I conduct myself at work from a post on mumsnet!
That is why twice this week I have given a hug by patients who told me I was an angel!

ISSTIUTNG · 15/12/2023 14:50

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 11:22

Student nurse's problem, not yours - there are security guards in our hospital they can call for backup and the students need to learn to manage these on the job.
obviously the priority as they're crashing
Report this situation later as high as it will go - this kind of territorial pissing is a good reason the NHS is up shit creek.
Not much you can do there if psych won't come down to see them, the receptionist could call psych team and give the patient an update about how long it will take, given they're already known to the hospital.
& 6) - receptionist uses the phone to request some scrubs, receptionist finds out how long the wait should be and updates the relatives. Receptionist escalates to overall dept manager if complaint required.
Better communication with ambulance service is needed, if you don't have the resources to handle the resus they should be checking if any other local hospitals do.

There are so many "support services" employed by a hospital that expect to just sit behind a desk 9-5 while others are left to manage. Other organisations dealing with the public have realised that staff need to be up and out there helping customers at the times their services are busiest (including shifts in anti-social hours), and in some cases have removed their desks/offices to facilitate that, implementing a shift service instead. There needs to be some creative thinking going on around what the non-clinical staff are responsible for, as in my experience these are often the ones sat chatting with their faces in the chocolate tins.

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You don't seem to understand the fundamental point. Of course drs and nurses and receptionists are resourceful. Of course they utilise other team members where they can but

repeat after me and let it sink in ... There aren't enough staff. Not enough of anyone. You can sit there and tell yourself otherwise as much as you want but I can tell you who's been on the frontline that all staff are spread dangerously too thin
Whether dealt with personally or delegated every single one of the scenarios I gave requires mental energy to risk assess and manage and every single one has the potential to end in serious harm. You can be as obtuse as you like but this shouldn't be difficult to understand

Igglepiggleandhisboat · 15/12/2023 14:50

I have MS.
I went to an and e before I was diagnosed and had similar experiences to you.
usually with MS the symptoms would last days if not weeks or months each time.
if it is MS it’s not urgent and a GP can refer you x

ISSTIUTNG · 15/12/2023 14:53

Can I ask.... Whoever we want to blame.... Is anybody happy with a developed country having a healthcare system in which we have to rely on volunteers to meet our basic needs? Does anybody genuinely think that the employed staff are happy with it? Why are we not more outraged at the people at the top who can actually do something about that?

rainbowunicorn · 15/12/2023 15:07

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 14:49

Love how you can ascertain how I conduct myself at work from a post on mumsnet!
That is why twice this week I have given a hug by patients who told me I was an angel!

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I didn't ascertain anything. If you read my post I said I hope that you treated people with more care and compassion than your posts have come across here. You posts have a tone about them that is defeatist in that you accept thats just how it is in the NHS so we all need to just accept it. This is very dehumanising for patients. Sometimes NHS staff are so used to such a low bar being gthe norm that they come across as cold and uncaring when talking about their workplace.
I would like to think that it doesn't carry through to theor interactions with patients. Unfortunately in my experience it does all too often.

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 15:10

ISSTIUTNG · 15/12/2023 14:53

Can I ask.... Whoever we want to blame.... Is anybody happy with a developed country having a healthcare system in which we have to rely on volunteers to meet our basic needs? Does anybody genuinely think that the employed staff are happy with it? Why are we not more outraged at the people at the top who can actually do something about that?

No, but given the vast amount of tax I pay already for a failing system, I'd rather have a co-pay arrangement when I need it than pump even more money into the existing system that I can't access.

A massive uptick in medical school places would be a start, thousands of talented kids each year are disappointed by not receiving a medicine place at uni, and many of the ones privileged enough to be chosen aren't supported financially to do it & end up dropping out. Which leads to medicine being full of fhe upper/middle classes with no understanding of less privileged lifestyles.

CormorantStrikesBack · 15/12/2023 15:42

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 15:10

No, but given the vast amount of tax I pay already for a failing system, I'd rather have a co-pay arrangement when I need it than pump even more money into the existing system that I can't access.

A massive uptick in medical school places would be a start, thousands of talented kids each year are disappointed by not receiving a medicine place at uni, and many of the ones privileged enough to be chosen aren't supported financially to do it & end up dropping out. Which leads to medicine being full of fhe upper/middle classes with no understanding of less privileged lifestyles.

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The BMA voted against more medical school places because if there were more spaces there would be more new doctors qualifying than the hospitals could support in training places. So there would be unemployed doctors 🤷🏻‍♀️. It’s a chicken and egg situation but there needs to be more doctors in order for there to be more university places. The best way of doing this would be increasing pay and improving conditions so people stopped leaving.

OnlyYesterday · 15/12/2023 15:56

OP I'm so sorry this has happened to you. I have been through similar traumatic experiences in A&E and have always been met with a "shrug what do you expect, the NHS is on it's knees" when I bring it up. I hate the attitude that we're supposed to be thankful for everything the NHS provides even when it's utterly traumatic. I hope you can see a medical professional very soon and get the diagnostics and treatment you urgently need. You absolutely do not deserve to have experienced that and it's completely wrong that you did.

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 15:57

CormorantStrikesBack · 15/12/2023 15:42

The BMA voted against more medical school places because if there were more spaces there would be more new doctors qualifying than the hospitals could support in training places. So there would be unemployed doctors 🤷🏻‍♀️. It’s a chicken and egg situation but there needs to be more doctors in order for there to be more university places. The best way of doing this would be increasing pay and improving conditions so people stopped leaving.

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Or we accept that some of the training places need to be done outside of the UK, create partnerships with organisations in other countries, and provide a small bursary to encourage takeup. I know several young people who would love the ability to travel to another country and learn at the same time.

Also, there are some excellent medical schools who take older graduates as career-changers even in their 40s and 50s; cohorts like this who are settled with kids at school could be encouraged straight onto the GP track. If mental health issues are genuinely taking up so much of the NHS's time, folks with some life experience behind them could be very useful in helping patients manage this - some folks go into social work later in life for similar reasons.

Youdirtysonofagun · 15/12/2023 16:00

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Alicesmagicmushroom · 15/12/2023 16:47

Has everyone forgotten we are talking about a national health service in the developed world!!

I agree with all those saying it’s culture is toxic and that’s the issue.

I won’t be convinced otherwise unless the argument comes with a unicorn.

Alicesmagicmushroom · 15/12/2023 16:47

Bloody NHS survival kit. Please.

Youdirtysonofagun · 15/12/2023 16:58

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Alicesmagicmushroom · 15/12/2023 17:06

@Youdirtysonofagun

Eh?

Of course it’s useless, it’s beyond useless, hence reminding those who have an oh well attitude let’s take a survival kit, this is a developed country as such the services should reflect that.

Labour? Oh, you jest.

I have every right to moan about anything that is standard and dangerous. You should too.

Alicesmagicmushroom · 15/12/2023 17:08

Sub standard I should say…

orangeguy · 15/12/2023 17:49

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 07:35

I don't think people realise the state of A&E at present, where I work there is a 14 hour wait to see a Dr!

You were seen by a nurse and a Dr who were happy it wasn't a stroke etc, but that an MRI was needed, I presume a a Neurologist wasn't on? Did you attend overnight? Not all specialities are covered 24hrs a day.

So it seems from this you were seen pretty quickly? Once an acute event ruled out you were then waiting for a specialist?

It is awful you were sat in a chair, but if all the cubicles were taken, where do you expect them to put you?

As for urinating yourself, agree, very humiliating, but staff don't have changes of clothes, yes a gown should have been offered etc.

This should have been highlighted to staff as it can be a sign of Cauda Eqina - which is an emergency

However if you have discharged yourself you have terminated that episode of care and you will now have to wait for your GP to refer you

Edited

Actually read the thread

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 17:51

orangeguy · 15/12/2023 17:49

Actually read the thread

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I posted that at 07.25.
I had and have continued to read the thread!

Cheeseplantalltheway · 15/12/2023 17:55

That's awful OP. İt's a lack of basic human decency, basic care.

Youdirtysonofagun · 15/12/2023 18:00

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NotQuiteHere · 15/12/2023 18:00

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 07:44

Yes I can, its isn't acceptable, but what do you expect staff to do?

There were over 100 people in the dept I work in, we have 50 cubicles, patients are being nursed in corridor's for 24 hours, it it himilitating for them and harrowing for staff, it isn't nursing, its firefighting, but what do expect staff to do?
Where do you suggest we put patients?

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what do you expect staff to do?

It is this attitude that is killing NHS more than understaffing and lack of resources.

sleepyscientist · 15/12/2023 18:51

@NotQuiteHere it a very valid question

*forced discharges to relatives - you can't do that
*seeing patients in open areas as no cubicles - you can't do that
*port-a-cabins - council rejects
*ANP/PA/Paramedics in primary care - you can't do that
*higher taxes - you can't do that
*Telephone/econsult - you can't do that what about the elderly!

What is the NHS meant to do? Honestly I would rather be seen in public by a AHCP get a script/referral and be out of there quickly than wait to be seen in private by a Dr. But that's my choice, I don't really want to pay more tax for a better service as that impacts on my quality of life daily vs a bad 48hrs in A&E which will be forgotten in days.

Short term I think patients need to be encouraged to take a relative and overnight bag if they can.

We need to invest in training new health care professionals, upskilling the ones we have, invest in recruitment/retention from existing budgets and defining scopes of practice and have a more nurse lead service to reduce doctor waits. Some kind of career structure that values experience vs the current education system so people stay and want to make the system better and expand scope of practice.

It's a massive task that requires a change of mind set from both HCP's and the public, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

justasking111 · 15/12/2023 18:54

I would definitely take an overnight bag, drinks, etc. my neighbour and his wife sat there for 32 hours. They were then moved to another area for tea and toast. He'd had a stroke, was in for three weeks.

Youdirtysonofagun · 15/12/2023 21:23

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HoppingPavlova · 16/12/2023 01:05

@LardyCakeAgain It's this superior "can't do" attitude that stops any new ideas and improvements in the NHS. The tasks suggested here would be expected of a care assistant in a nursing home, who are often not medical professionals and given the bare minimum of basic training. Not even any lifting - nothing that couldn't be done by a trained volunteer. Do you honestly think there will be fewer complaints and litigation from patients who are neglected in a waiting room and left to sit in their own piss and shit, with the resulting skin infections & ulcers? Or there would be fewer litigation cases from patients who died on their own on a trolley, vs ones being checked on ny volunteers who could raise the alarm sooner

The bit you have missed is the HCA in a nursing home is EMPLOYED. There is no issue in them undertaking tasks you describe, as they are employed, they have undergone required training, all good. They have responsibilities, that can be enforced, because they are employed. This is not the case with volunteers. You can’t make them have the responsibility of the group you are comparing them to. So what you are really saying is employ HCA’s not volunteers, big difference in a medico-legal sense there! Then it becomes a case of where does the money for all of these HCA’s come from. What bit do you cut back on to bring these on, because it WILL come out of your budget, I can assure you there won’t be any extra for them. So more HCA’s and less nurses or Dr’s, take your pick. Then, you really will need them as the wait time will be even longer again so not sure how that solved the problem?

As for your claim of people dying on trolleys in hallways and the waiting room……… While I’m sure it exists (as I never fail to be surprised), I personally haven’t known of an institution where a nurse didn’t go out and have a subtle whip around at intervals to make sure any significant change in clinical presentation was missed. You can’t have people dying in waiting areas and corridor trolleys - do you know what an absolute drama that would cause? Paperwork and meetings for years. Accordingly, this is usually factored in with staffing and tasks. Just because they are not talking to you individually does not mean you have not had an eye cast over you.

As for suing because you got ulcers and infections from a sitting in a waiting room, get a grip. Takes more than that, usually a sustained period such as people in nursing homes or babies where it is not a once off soiling and being left for hours, but consistently soiling and being left for a while on a routine basis. I used adult incontinence pants for years after having kids as I ended up with all sorts of incontinence and unlike my early days where I could hold a wee for over 12hrs if flat out, no way I could hold it for 10mins, and no generally you can’t just duck to the loo when you need. I’d be in heavily soiled ‘nappies’ for hours at a time, probably more unpleasant for others than me at times to be frank. Nothing a good clean with wet wipes and then shower when you get home can’t fix, no harm done. Sitting soiled for several hours as a one off is honestly not the absolute end of the world. Having said that no idea why reception couldn’t give OP a blanket to sit on, usually plenty of those spare.

LardyCakeAgain · 16/12/2023 12:10

HoppingPavlova · 16/12/2023 01:05

@LardyCakeAgain It's this superior "can't do" attitude that stops any new ideas and improvements in the NHS. The tasks suggested here would be expected of a care assistant in a nursing home, who are often not medical professionals and given the bare minimum of basic training. Not even any lifting - nothing that couldn't be done by a trained volunteer. Do you honestly think there will be fewer complaints and litigation from patients who are neglected in a waiting room and left to sit in their own piss and shit, with the resulting skin infections & ulcers? Or there would be fewer litigation cases from patients who died on their own on a trolley, vs ones being checked on ny volunteers who could raise the alarm sooner

The bit you have missed is the HCA in a nursing home is EMPLOYED. There is no issue in them undertaking tasks you describe, as they are employed, they have undergone required training, all good. They have responsibilities, that can be enforced, because they are employed. This is not the case with volunteers. You can’t make them have the responsibility of the group you are comparing them to. So what you are really saying is employ HCA’s not volunteers, big difference in a medico-legal sense there! Then it becomes a case of where does the money for all of these HCA’s come from. What bit do you cut back on to bring these on, because it WILL come out of your budget, I can assure you there won’t be any extra for them. So more HCA’s and less nurses or Dr’s, take your pick. Then, you really will need them as the wait time will be even longer again so not sure how that solved the problem?

As for your claim of people dying on trolleys in hallways and the waiting room……… While I’m sure it exists (as I never fail to be surprised), I personally haven’t known of an institution where a nurse didn’t go out and have a subtle whip around at intervals to make sure any significant change in clinical presentation was missed. You can’t have people dying in waiting areas and corridor trolleys - do you know what an absolute drama that would cause? Paperwork and meetings for years. Accordingly, this is usually factored in with staffing and tasks. Just because they are not talking to you individually does not mean you have not had an eye cast over you.

As for suing because you got ulcers and infections from a sitting in a waiting room, get a grip. Takes more than that, usually a sustained period such as people in nursing homes or babies where it is not a once off soiling and being left for hours, but consistently soiling and being left for a while on a routine basis. I used adult incontinence pants for years after having kids as I ended up with all sorts of incontinence and unlike my early days where I could hold a wee for over 12hrs if flat out, no way I could hold it for 10mins, and no generally you can’t just duck to the loo when you need. I’d be in heavily soiled ‘nappies’ for hours at a time, probably more unpleasant for others than me at times to be frank. Nothing a good clean with wet wipes and then shower when you get home can’t fix, no harm done. Sitting soiled for several hours as a one off is honestly not the absolute end of the world. Having said that no idea why reception couldn’t give OP a blanket to sit on, usually plenty of those spare.

The RNLI are crewed by volunteers, Mountain Rescue teams are crewed by volunteers, etc., and they work in some of the most dangerous scenarios imaginable. The whole insurance argument is a red herring, but the BMA & Nursing unions love it because they think volunteers will erode their pay and conditions. They only give a toss about their staff, not patients.