Page 6 | To have discharged myself from A&E?

AandEnightmare · 2023-12-15T07:03:40+00:00

As the username suggests… I attended A&E with numbness is my hand, pins and needles in both arms and legs, blurred vision and extreme stuff neck pain. Stroke nurse was happy it wasn’t a stroke but wanted an MRI as did A&E consultant. Both concerned about MS and tragically I then urinated myself in the A&E waiting room where I was left on a wooden chair for 8 hours. i asked for a change of clothes, just a hospital gown and was told until I was seen by a neurologist who agreed to book me in; this wasn’t possible. I have long covid and extreme fatigue and pain at the best of times and I was in tears in the waiting room crippled in pain and exhaustion and was just told repeatedly that only a neurologist could determine if an MRI was needed as an emergency or as an outpatient and on the time of leaving, after 7 hours, I was number 13 on the list so expected to be seen by this evening. I will ring my GP as soon as open but I’ve never had such a terrible experience in a hospital in my life! i feel shocked

Goatymum · 15/12/2023 11:49

widowtwankywashroom · 15/12/2023 08:56

I am not justifying it
I hate the way patients are left for hours on end
But if the PT wets themselves in the w/room and the nurses aren't aware, what do you expect then to do?

She said she informed reception who told a nurse.

gamerchick · 15/12/2023 11:52

ISSTIUTNG · 15/12/2023 11:18

In a nutshell the attitude of A&E staff. Couldn't give a fuck.

damned A and E staff. I mean why can't they just clone themselves or grow an extra pair of arms?! ... they're paid enough of our tax money!

No, at the very scraping of the barrel at least. Grabbing a blanket for the OP to wrap herself in and showing a tiny bit of kindness would have taken hardly any time at all. Not treating people with kindness when they're vulnerable and a little bit goes a long way is shit

Don't dare tell me grabbing a blanket and saying something kind is too taxing for anyone dealing with a scared someone. Because that'll say more about you as a person than anything else.

NamesNot · 15/12/2023 11:53

Firstly sorry for your experience OP, there are defiantly parts of your experience that need investigating including the basics of being given a gown.

I work for an ambulance service, to give the other side of the coin. I spend most of my shifts sat outside various a&e depts with patient often the same one for many many hours. We take them for X-rays and first assessment whilst waiting to speed up the process but there is nothing else we can do when the hospital is full expect keep them warm/fed/toilet as needed whilst waiting.

The system is broken and I'm not sure what the answer is as it require more staff, better hospital and infrastructure which will cost millions. The improvements are not going to be quick.

Sitting outside hospitals all day/nights our call stack is ever growing and people are waiting hours for an ambulance to arrive. It's very sad and frustrating for everyone.

The staff are doing their best with few resources and little time for each patient. The sad thing is many experienced staff are leaving, me too next year and I've been in the role a very long time. I love my job but cannot cope with the poor quality of care I'm forced to give by an inefficient system.

bryceQ · 15/12/2023 11:59

That's horrendous you poor thing

It's shocking how we now treat people

I recently had a bad reaction to antibiotics and was violently vomiting in a chair in waiting room for a&e I hadn't eaten in 3 days or kept water down for 12 hrs. Not one nurse gave me a tissue or anything they just kept walking past ignoring me as I was collapsed in a chair. It was so inhumane

givemethetea · 15/12/2023 12:04

So sorry for your experience OP, it's shocking and yes wait times can't be helped at the moment but leaving someone wet can easily be solved- regardless who was told. Some of the replies on this post aswell seem that NHS staff have become desensitised to how shit it is for patients at the moment which doesn't help.

I had a maternity app a couple of days ago, booked in for a certain time just after the unit opened, an hour and a half later they still couldn't tell me when I would be seen and I was made to feel like a burden even questioning it- I know it's nothing like your scenario (or anywhere near as bad) but it's frustrating. A couple of the staff members just said oh we're always late, this is always how it is but then made it very clear I could only have my next appointment at a certain time if I could definitely make it from another app o had booked in just before 🤷🏻‍♀️ how am I supposed to know what timeframe everyone is working on at this point. You can tell it's "just how it is" for the staff as they're so used to it.

1984Winston · 15/12/2023 12:15

My brother recently injured his foot, it was so bad he couldn't weight bare on it so a receptionist or nurse gave him some crutches to get to the xray department, when he got there the nurse had a massive go at him that he was given crutches (even though he literally couldn't walk) I'm really sympathetic to the NHS staff but I do think they have been working in such bad conditions that some they have forgotten basic kindness

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 12:18

bryceQ · 15/12/2023 11:59

That's horrendous you poor thing

It's shocking how we now treat people

I recently had a bad reaction to antibiotics and was violently vomiting in a chair in waiting room for a&e I hadn't eaten in 3 days or kept water down for 12 hrs. Not one nurse gave me a tissue or anything they just kept walking past ignoring me as I was collapsed in a chair. It was so inhumane

This is exactly the type of scenario that a first-aid trained volunteer force could help with, there are plenty of folks out here who want to help make the NHS better but need to be directed to what's needed, as per in the pandemic. Charity shops could provide a wardrobe of spare tracksuit bottoms & t-shirts that would otherwise go to recycling, the NHS could provide wet wipes, sick bags, incontinence pads & whatever else to be distributed by volunteer greeters/gophers. Providing this stuff up front would even save them staff time & resources having to clean up blood, piss/poo & vomit from the waiting area.

misteek · 15/12/2023 12:26

Why didnt she ask somebody to take her to the toilet?

HoppingPavlova · 15/12/2023 12:28

She said she informed reception who told a nurse

But that’s the missing piece. You, I, OP, or anyone here has zilch idea of what then transpired. It may be that this information was passed on and clinically OP was assessed as high priority, yet even with potential CE was still 2hrs off given that priority balanced with whatever other high priorities there were. At that point OP would have been taken through and given a gown etc. Meanwhile though, as I stated previously, no idea why admin couldn’t have given them a blanket to sit on. So maybe the relevant clinical staff knew, nurses knew but relief from wet clothes was still 2hrs off with people honestly doing their best. People who think it’s so simple, don’t understand it’s truly a case of not being able to get to people until a certain point, and while that’s crap, it is what it is.

C152 · 15/12/2023 12:31

I'm so sorry you had such a dreadful experience, OP. Only you know what you can put up with for any length of time, so I don't think anyone else can say whether you were reasonable to leave A&E or not. At our local, we have been told that A&E is the best place to get an urgent scan, but it does mean waiting for a slot to open up...and that may or may not happen the same day, depending on how critical they think you are. If it were me, I would have stayed in A&E, no matter how long it took, because that, in my experience, is still significantly quicker than going down the GP route. But, as I say, only you know if you're able to wait that long and how your local GP/Hospital work in terms of timescales for these things. I hope you're able to get a scan and get to the bottom of the issue soon.

HoppingPavlova · 15/12/2023 12:39

@LardyCakeAgain This is exactly the type of scenario that a first-aid trained volunteer force could help with, there are plenty of folks out here who want to help make the NHS better but need to be directed to what's needed, as per in the pandemic. Charity shops could provide a wardrobe of spare tracksuit bottoms & t-shirts that would otherwise go to recycling, the NHS could provide wet wipes, sick bags, incontinence pads & whatever else to be distributed by volunteer greeters/gophers. Providing this stuff up front would even save them staff time & resources having to clean up blood, piss/poo & vomit from the waiting area

Won’t work as fraught with peril and a litigious nightmare. Let’s say with OP, she wets herself and a volunteer is pulled between trying to get OP new clothes, someone else who is vomiting a sick bag and tissues and then someone else stops them to say their child has suddenly gone sleepy. The volunteer goes and tells someone about the sleepy child and then gets distracted with also managing the vomit bag, going to find tissues as the supply seems to have run out, and then remembers OP needs dry clothes and gets them. But they forget to flag to the right people OP has wet herself with no feeling of doing so. Turns out OP has EC and undertakes medical litigation down the track because this was not picked up in time before permanent damage occurs because she was still sitting there 10hrs later and the volunteer never told anyone. Nightmare. Complete. Fucking. Nightmare. Do you have any idea how much time litigation takes up? A fuck tonne. You can’t chance this happening due to volunteers.

justasking111 · 15/12/2023 12:45

My mother an ex nurse became a volunteer. My friend runs the volunteer team for a large hospital. She places volunteers according to their skills.

We have some amazing volunteers who can and do juggle successfully. My mother does two shifts on trauma now. So @HoppingPavlova your comments are pretty offensive.

stressedoutstudent · 15/12/2023 13:00

HoppingPavlova · 15/12/2023 12:39

@LardyCakeAgain This is exactly the type of scenario that a first-aid trained volunteer force could help with, there are plenty of folks out here who want to help make the NHS better but need to be directed to what's needed, as per in the pandemic. Charity shops could provide a wardrobe of spare tracksuit bottoms & t-shirts that would otherwise go to recycling, the NHS could provide wet wipes, sick bags, incontinence pads & whatever else to be distributed by volunteer greeters/gophers. Providing this stuff up front would even save them staff time & resources having to clean up blood, piss/poo & vomit from the waiting area

Won’t work as fraught with peril and a litigious nightmare. Let’s say with OP, she wets herself and a volunteer is pulled between trying to get OP new clothes, someone else who is vomiting a sick bag and tissues and then someone else stops them to say their child has suddenly gone sleepy. The volunteer goes and tells someone about the sleepy child and then gets distracted with also managing the vomit bag, going to find tissues as the supply seems to have run out, and then remembers OP needs dry clothes and gets them. But they forget to flag to the right people OP has wet herself with no feeling of doing so. Turns out OP has EC and undertakes medical litigation down the track because this was not picked up in time before permanent damage occurs because she was still sitting there 10hrs later and the volunteer never told anyone. Nightmare. Complete. Fucking. Nightmare. Do you have any idea how much time litigation takes up? A fuck tonne. You can’t chance this happening due to volunteers.

I agree, We have volunteers, but they literally do directions, taking relatives to the correct areas, and teas/coffees. They cant do anything that involves direct contact with patients or cleaning of bodily fluids. However, a HCA based there can. Our HCA's are absolutely amazing, their clinical knowledge is incredible, and being on the door managing the waiting room is exactly the kind of role they can take on. Having someone in uniform in the public wait areas attending to patients also massively improves patient satisfaction. Its such a workable solution to an ever growing problem i dont see why all trusts arent utilising HCA's into roles like this. Receptionist dont have time to care for the needs of patients waiting, but a dedicated HCA can.

CormorantStrikesBack · 15/12/2023 13:05

Dd has twice wet herself during an a&e CT scan. The drugs made her wee. Both times she’s told the staff and apologised for leaving a wet patch. Both times the staff have told her not to worry and brought her back to the waiting room wet, to sit in piss clothes

Parker231 · 15/12/2023 13:27

CaroleSinger · 15/12/2023 08:16

Does it really take a Dr 13 hours to see one group if patients in A&E? Surely they can get through patients quicker than that? It makes you wonder what they are actually doing while everyone is sat there for hours. It creates more an image of taking all the time 8n the world rather than being run off feet. How did we get here? It wasn't that long ago you just walked in and got seen. There were no 4 or 6 hour waits.

More patients wanting to be seen but less staff and beds.

fliptopbin · 15/12/2023 13:40

I was admitted to hospital last week with a suspected kidney infection, and after they had taken vlood, I offered to sleep in the car until tjete was space for ne in Surgical Assessment Unit. As it was, I got a phone call at 5am to say that my bloods were borderline for infection, but that I had a kidney stone. They said that under any normal circumstance they would keep me 8n for pain control, but these are not normal times, so its just a case of grit my teeth and get on with it.
The plan is to do an outpatient procedure to zap it, but that is likely to be months. I tried to get a gp appointment , but there is nothing before January.
Before anyone says it, I know that nobody ever died of pain. Also, since it was standing room in the waiting room, I probably saved a life thstvg

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 13:43

HoppingPavlova · 15/12/2023 12:39

@LardyCakeAgain This is exactly the type of scenario that a first-aid trained volunteer force could help with, there are plenty of folks out here who want to help make the NHS better but need to be directed to what's needed, as per in the pandemic. Charity shops could provide a wardrobe of spare tracksuit bottoms & t-shirts that would otherwise go to recycling, the NHS could provide wet wipes, sick bags, incontinence pads & whatever else to be distributed by volunteer greeters/gophers. Providing this stuff up front would even save them staff time & resources having to clean up blood, piss/poo & vomit from the waiting area

Won’t work as fraught with peril and a litigious nightmare. Let’s say with OP, she wets herself and a volunteer is pulled between trying to get OP new clothes, someone else who is vomiting a sick bag and tissues and then someone else stops them to say their child has suddenly gone sleepy. The volunteer goes and tells someone about the sleepy child and then gets distracted with also managing the vomit bag, going to find tissues as the supply seems to have run out, and then remembers OP needs dry clothes and gets them. But they forget to flag to the right people OP has wet herself with no feeling of doing so. Turns out OP has EC and undertakes medical litigation down the track because this was not picked up in time before permanent damage occurs because she was still sitting there 10hrs later and the volunteer never told anyone. Nightmare. Complete. Fucking. Nightmare. Do you have any idea how much time litigation takes up? A fuck tonne. You can’t chance this happening due to volunteers.

It's this superior "can't do" attitude that stops any new ideas and improvements in the NHS. The tasks suggested here would be expected of a care assistant in a nursing home, who are often not medical professionals and given the bare minimum of basic training. Not even any lifting - nothing that couldn't be done by a trained volunteer. Do you honestly think there will be fewer complaints and litigation from patients who are neglected in a waiting room and left to sit in their own piss and shit, with the resulting skin infections & ulcers? Or there would be fewer litigation cases from patients who died on their own on a trolley, vs ones being checked on ny volunteers who could raise the alarm sooner?

Don't forget nurses never used to have degrees either, years ago they learned on the job and used common sense to manage their patients....

JenniferJupiterVenusandMars · 15/12/2023 13:46

LakieLady · 15/12/2023 09:51

So sorry you had to go through this, OP, it was appalling.

But it's made me wonder just why A&E is so stretched these days, and whether the difficulties people experience in getting GP appointments means they end up at A&E in desperation.

There appear to be problems at the other end of the process, too. Many patients can't be discharged as soon as they're medically fit because they're awaiting social care assessments and care plans. Adult social care is also under huge pressure because of staff shortages and budget cuts, so that can take several days (although I have heard of one case taking 6 weeks, that's beyond my comprehension).

Every day that someone medically fit for discharge is occupying a bed unnecessarily, that's a bed that can't be used for someone who needs admission, and ultimately that can mean another person stuck in A&E unnecessarily. And while they are there they will need staff to monitor them, which makes inroads into the time they can spend on other patients.

None of this is actually new. A friend of mine spent 36 hours waiting on a trolley in A&E because there were no beds in 1995.

Imo, the whole process, from A&E to admission & discharge needs to be looked at.

@LakieLady it goes back much further than the mid 90’s, I worked in the NHS from the early 1970’s to 2015, it’s continued to get progressively worse since I left.
Ageing population, lack of staff, paucity of community services including social care, dropping numbers of GPs (our practice has gone from 3 full time GPs to 2 very part time, a paramedic on one day and practice nurses trying to fill the gaps) or GPs moving into more lucrative work.
I don’t know what the answer is, private medical care relies on NHS hospitals for emergency and critical interventions.

LardyCakeAgain · 15/12/2023 13:47

stressedoutstudent · 15/12/2023 13:00

I agree, We have volunteers, but they literally do directions, taking relatives to the correct areas, and teas/coffees. They cant do anything that involves direct contact with patients or cleaning of bodily fluids. However, a HCA based there can. Our HCA's are absolutely amazing, their clinical knowledge is incredible, and being on the door managing the waiting room is exactly the kind of role they can take on. Having someone in uniform in the public wait areas attending to patients also massively improves patient satisfaction. Its such a workable solution to an ever growing problem i dont see why all trusts arent utilising HCA's into roles like this. Receptionist dont have time to care for the needs of patients waiting, but a dedicated HCA can.

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This sounds like a great solution - I've met some great HCAs during my time in hospital and most of them still have the compassion to do it.

alloalloallo · 15/12/2023 13:49

OP ’m sorry you had such a horrible experience and I hope you can find out what is going on.

I had to take my daughter to an OOH GP appointment recently. We were sent by 111 as she was experiencing some nasty symptoms after an endoscopy.

It was about 9pm on a Saturday night so I was fully expecting it to be a shitshow, but was not expecting how much of a shitshow it actually was.

Usually, the OOH GP and ED waiting rooms are in totally separate areas, but it was so busy they’d turned the ED waiting room into a temporary ED ward and ED and OOH GP were sharing a waiting area.

We were lucky and seen pretty quickly. The longest wait was for a chest x-ray so we were in an out in 3 hours

It was packed. There were no spare chairs. The queue to check in for ED was out the door and was so the entire time we were there. 2 ambulance crews were there for over an hour waiting to check in/hand over their patients. Staff were run ragged, none of them stopped. Patients were sat in the waiting area with IVs as there were no cubicles or beds available. A lady I was talking to had been there for 15 hours as they were waiting for a bed for her.

There were a couple of staff looking after everyone in the waiting room as best they could but it was just horrendous. It was firefighting. They couldn’t give actual care as there were just too few of them and too many people waiting.

It’s unsustainable and dangerous for patients and staff.

QueenCamilla · 15/12/2023 14:07

After 13h of crying and pleading for help in the A&E (I wasn't even triaged at that point), sleeping on the floor tiles when I couldn't sit upright anymore, I collapsed on my way to the toilets. Fellow patients picked me up and brought me to the nurse station and I crawled on my stomach and elbows right in there amongst them and dialled 999...

I asked for an ambulance or any sort of medical aid. The (very confused!) 999 operator put me through to some intensive care official who put in his own call to the hospital. Well I never! Despite the cat-bum faces of the A&E nurses, I was seen by a doctor within minutes of that call, I got morphine for pain relief when I was unable to get Ibuprofen for 14h, I was given use of a small couch in a side room so I don't have to sit on my gynecological abscess, even a cup of hot tea appeared. I was soon admitted to gyne ward and given my own room to have a sleep in, in what was a very quiet department with barely any patients in. I was allowed to rest until the consultants were in and soon after that I had a life-saving surgery.

The insight I gained from dialling 999 from the floor of the A&E is this: there is no scarcity of resources or time at the hands of the A&E staff - it was all there (and more!) when the management intervened. However, there is very real rot of humanity present that needs managing acutely and urgently.

Youdirtysonofagun · 15/12/2023 14:10

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tattygrl · 15/12/2023 14:26

biter · 15/12/2023 10:31

Your experience OP is awful.

My observation of NHS services I use is that people in it are knackered, overwhelmed and in some cases just not suited to the job.

I've seen the effects of this chronic chaos in the corporate world and the symptoms are generally

Iow productivity - can't cope so I'll do the least I can as I'm exhausted
firefighting - I'll do what's right in front of me now or to who shouts loudest
not fixing broken systems - I'm too overwhelmed to think strategically or plan so I'll move to a permanent reactive mode

This is normal human behaviour. The only ways to address it are

give people breaks and time off to recoup energy or they break, go off sick and don't come back
have strategic leadership that takes a long view and fixes the high impact issues first
look systemically at the issues
draft in temporary additional resources to free up the people who know how things work, to fix them
make radical changes to processes.

We are in a state of permanent crisis management at the moment and there is no quick fix.

People saying that labour won't fix it are partially right - there is no overnight fix BUT they are more likely to revoke the ridiculous immigration policies that are stopping / discouraging/ making more difficult for overseas workers to work in the NHS in the UK to help us make a start.

Money will make a difference and there is A LOT of money in this country that could be diverted to NHS.

They can put incentives in place to encourage people to work in the vacant posts through free training.

They can clear student debt for nurses and re introduce the bursaries the Tories got rid of

they can make sure that NHS has proper supplies in place that are not bought through ridiculously inflated contract prices
they can (as in the 50s) give financial incentives for overseas people to come and train
they can build affordable homes for lower paid staff to work in

The cyclical Tory approach to healthcare is privatisation by stealth. They've been doing it for years and years. They know that if they say it outright that there will be uproar so they do it sneakily. They don't care that people suffer. As soon as they need care they wither pay for it or get bumped up the list - remember when Boris fecking Johnson had covid and was put into ICU even though he wasn't Ill enough at the time. But they prioritised him and he got better with early intervention. Something that many were denied. Bastard.

I'd also like to add that as frustrated as we all are with the situation we really must rally behind our NHS staff and complain, complain complain so that the evidence is there as to what is broken, what matters to us and what needs to change so that when the bastard cynical tories are out we know where to start.

Fantastic points well made. NHS nurses are working in a nightmare of a system right now.

QueenCamilla · 15/12/2023 14:28

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No volunteer would be able to help me in my situation that night in the A&E. I needed morphine to stop my heart rate from going into overdrive from pain, I needed to lay down, I needed to see a doctor (are you surprised?) and I needed an urgent surgery under general anaesthetic.

A volunteer could have given me a blanket to stop me from shivering whilst sleeping on the tiles I suppose... 🤔

shreddednips · 15/12/2023 14:49

stressedoutstudent · 15/12/2023 10:51

We have a HCA stationed at the doors of A&E 24/7. They are there to help people to and from cars, people in chairs that need moving to triage or when called, patients that need assistance to the toilets, to direct people to the correct place when they have come to A&E by mistake, to advise on waiting times, to find a patient if a relative is looking for them, to make sure there is always fresh water and cordials available and a hot drink and sandwich if people have been waiting a long time.

Its a very easy change to make in large departments, 1 HCA based in the waiting room to assist patients needs. The OP would not have had any issues getting support and clothing if departments all followed suit. There are ways to manage problems that are currently unfixable in the short term.

They do this at our local A&E I think, as last time I took my DS they had a HCA in the waiting room the whole time we were there. I have no idea if it's feasible in every hospital but they made all the difference in the world. It was still an enormous wait and there were lots of very elderly/unwell patients waiting in chairs but at least there was someone ensuring they had food/water/safe access to a toilet and generally checking they were ok.