To be completely broken by DS behaviour?

[MachuPikachu]

I have DS5, DD3 and DS2. Final was a failed coil before anyone starts questioning that decision.

DS5 is extremely challenging and I’m really struggling to cope with it. At school he is well behaved and they have no concerns. At home he lacks all independence and will push back heavily on doing anything himself. He has to dress himself and I will not help with this as it’s an important skill, but he will ask repeatedly for assistance despite always getting the same answer. His younger sister dresses herself easily and with no fuss. He won’t even put a banana skin in the bin without it being a big argument.

DS5 just seems unable to play nicely with his siblings. Yesterday he kicked down a tower than DS2 had made within seconds of going into the same room. When he was told if he couldn’t play nicely with them he couldn’t play with them and removed to his room for a timeout he did exactly the same thing when allowed back down. It’s very rare that I can leave a room that they are all in because he will hurt someone or do something to upset them.

It all came to a head last night when a friend popped round and DS5 decided he wanted to ‘cuddle’ the younger ones whilst they were having their milk. He just wanted to annoy them and it did annoy and upset them and he just would not stop doing it until removed from the room. Friend stayed with him downstairs whilst I put the younger two to bed. I then took DS5 up for his stories and he decided to scream repeatedly in an attempt to wake the younger two.

I was so so embarrassed in front of my friend, her children are really well behaved and I don’t know what I’m doing wrong or how to manage this behaviour. DS5 went for a sleepover at grandmas recently and DD3 and DS2 just played so nicely together and it seemed so easy, within 5 mins of him arriving home the next day someone was crying.

I feel completely broken by his behaviour and just have no idea how to address it anymore.

AIBU to be broken by this or is this just parenting? Any advice truely welcome

I always find emphasis on little children being "grown up", a "big boy" etc a bit sad. He clearly doesn't want to be bigger than his siblings, in his mind they're the ones getting the attention. Comments like, "wow, that was really grown up, how you did X, Y, Z" are much more suitable for 9 - 10 year olds IMO.

Can you continue to praise the good stuff, and set expectations in a positive way eg "Emma is bringing Tommy over to play this afternoon, I know you'll be really great at taking turns, you're so good at that." (or whatever it is). It tells him what your expectations are and you're in effect praising him in advance.

Thanks all. I feel like compared to his friends he is already not very independent, he doesn’t cut his own food, brush his own teeth, wipe his bum, zip his coat etc. I thought it was good to encourage him to dress himself as it’s something he doesn’t struggle to do at all, he just doesn’t want to, but maybe I should just relent and do that too.

My dentist told me to brush my kids' teeth until they were 7! I work with 5 year olds and quite a lot of them don't cut their food or zip their coats...
How's his pencil control? It might be worth having a wee chat with the teacher to see if he needs some fine motor practice, or it might just be behavioural.

DS couldn't do his zip until he was about 8. His fine motor skills weren't great. Some kids are, some kids aren't.

Stop comparing him to other people's kids - you're building unrealistic expectations for both of you.

My DM raised two very independent kids and it was mostly through praise for both of us, how good we are this inherent level of trust that we were amazing at everything we did.

We more than likely weren't - but in her eyes we were capable of anything and that made us very resilient and courageous.

I'd praise him far more often for getting stuff right. Words of affirmation are another love language.

Here's a link if you've got no time for the book https://5lovelanguages.com/

And what your love language is might not be what his is.. and vice versa

Don't worry, you are doing great - I found this a difficult age.

Having had two boys, the first thing I would say is ditch the expecting him to get himself dressed. I did this with my eldest and it was awful, set him (and me!) up in a bad mood as it never went well. His younger brother was the same (didn't want to do it himself) and I didn't make him. Instead I used it as a lovely, cuddly, bonding time each morning. It was so much nicer! He's now 8 and can definitely dress himself 🙂 Maybe give it a try.

You have had lots of sensible advise, I'd just like to add,children at this end of the term are often really exhausted and it's to be expected that their behaviour isn't always perfect at home.
I was also wondering if there's anything that he really enjoys doing, always good to focus and encourage that.
Good luck, not an easy situation, but definitely classic attention seeking behaviour!

Good luck

You must be at your wits end with the situation.

Not sure if anyone else has asked this but does he react to your emotions-if he behaves really badly and you burst into tears- does he show any reaction? Also are there any bullying issues in his class-anything that is causing him to come home angry and act out his frustration at home?

He's making bids for attention.

We all have different needs and attention is one of them, he has a higher need for attention than the other 2 at the moment and everything he does is a bid for that connection.

Stop looking at it from an independence perspective and look at it from a needs perspective and just ask yourself what is the harm in fulfilling that need now before it escalates later.

You can still teach responsibility and have natural consequences while accomodating bids for attention.

Could he be jealous of the other siblings getting more time with you? As they’re younger the must rely on you a bit more and maybe your son has picked up on this and so is wanting more attention? Maybe have a day or treat out where it’s just you and him and maybe see if that helps. But tbh I think his behaviour is probably pretty normal and hopefully just a phase.

I run a parenting program in a CAMHS service called The incredible years. There is a book you can buy of the same name that goes along with the program. The course is built on playing with your child and praise. A catch phrase being catch them doing something good and really notice it. It might be helpful to you.

I think you're expecting too much from a 5yr old.

This is also classic jealousy - I have 3 children and my 5yr old daughter did the same. However, I would always help her if she asked me for help. You should always help your child if they ask for it - He's 5! I hardly doubt helping him dress will result in him still needing to be dressed as an older child, and/or adult.

It sounds like he's starting to resent you because you are very cruelly rejecting his asking you for help. What parent doesn't help their small child when they ask for it!? I mean come on, O/P! Do you not ask for help as an adult, or ever asked for help in your life!? Was this something you yourself suffered as a child? Were your parents strict? It sounds like you're pushing some repressed insecurities onto your poor Son and then confused when he lashes out. He's probably frustrated and angry with you.

Your son will see you dressing your younger two and wonder why he cannot get any help. You even say your 3yr old dresses themselves - This is your responsibility as a parent, or can you just not be bothered to do it?

You are causing your son's anger issues. Nobody else. They do not come from nowhere. This is not a mental health issue, either. I work in this field and have done for a long time.

I bet you if you took the time to help your son a little bit, allowed him to help you with the younger two, didn't display such cold contempt toward him - His behaviour will slowly improve over the next few weeks.

Support him, change the routine, say yes, and see what happens.

Yes I think it's a double whammy for your older child who had your undivided attention and now there are two younger ones. My son regressed from being a big boy who wanted to walk everywhere (aged 3) to insisting he get pushed around in a buggy when his younger brother was born. He would literally lie down on the pavement and refuse to walk. It is a really tough juggling act when you have your second/third child to keep them all contented, clean, fed and busy. I was in shock when the second one arrived. I couldn't believe how hard it was to parent two of them together. What you're saying definitely goes with the territory. I agree with the other posters that the older boy is seeking attention and as others have suggested, trying to reinforce positive behaviour is worth a try. Maybe try some 'grown-up' games that the other two are not able to join in with eg identifying letters, colours, words, or reading, simple sums, craft activities, playdo, soft ball games. Or reading with your older son who can then help tell the story to the little ones. Good luck :-)

I agree with the poster who said that 5 seems so grown up when your eldest is 5, but so small when your youngest is that age! Even more so when your children are grown and you’re around your friends’ children. It is important that he knows how to get dressed / undressed for PE, but maybe in the morning it’s still ok to give him a little help. My dc who struggled most with buttons and zips was later diagnosed with dyslexia as well, and very likely has dyspraxia too, so just bear that in mind.

Before you panic too much consider if he may be autistic or have another genetic disorder like 47XXY as these can cause severe behavioural issues due to poor executive function. My son wasn't diagnosed until 18 but finally some of his irrational behaviour could be explained.

Referring to behaviour as attention seeking is so negative. It’s clearly attention needing for this little boy. There’s a difference and I think puts it a positive light. He’s giving a very clear message through his behaviour, he’s struggling & in his eyes wanting the same nurture & attention his siblings are getting. He’s five! Still very little.

It’s hard isn’t it, and I’m sorry you’re having such a tough time.

But my honest opinion? You’re the one that is causing this behaviour. You are being harsh on him and treating him like a nuisance. The way you speak about his behaviour and saying you’re ‘broken’ comes off a bit selfish. He’s 5. He’s so small still. He’s not breaking you, you just need to get stronger and spend more time making him feel loved and important.

I say all that with as much love and respect as possible. I just wanted to be honest and straight to my point.

Just a totally perfect response. I wish someone had said all of this to me 20 years ago. Good luck!

In order to get good eldest sibling behaviour you need to make being the eldest a perk not only a responsibility. Reward him with as much 1:1 time as you can (a later bedtime and some special time in the evening maybe?)
Some kids their love language is acts of service, so even if they can do the thing themselves you doing it for them is how they understand that you love them. If you're doing it for his younger siblings but not for him he may feel he's getting less of your love. That doesn't mean you have to dress him, but maybe find other ways to communicate the same thing. If he does need reassurance with his dressing though that's also understandable, 5 is still really young. They don't build life skills and resilience by being forced to be more independent, they gain them through being supported with them when they need it, even if the need is emotional reassurance rather than actual practical assistance.

He’s really jealous - poor little lad, his world got turned upside down. He needs quality 1 to 1 time with you. Then introduce the others one at a time into that quality time but with the attention and focus 100% on him.

Perfect behaviour at school followed by challenging behaviour at home may be masking, or it may be that he just feels like it's the only way to get your attention.

Also, stop the time outs and sending him to his room, he won't 'calm down' during these punishments, he will internalise his feelings and then explode again. Isolating small children is completely ineffective, the naughty corner is not a constructive way to modify behaviour. If this behaviour is based on him feeling jealous and left out, because the younger two are home with you whilst he's at school, then sending him out the room is going to make this worse. He's too young to understand and regulate his emotions, he needs support and interaction to learn how to express and deal with his feelings.

Is there any history of Autism or similar in your families? I'm not saying he is on the spectrum, he could just be acting out because he's tired and frustrated, but it's always worth considering ASD, and even if he isn't, some of the behaviour support strategy's are helpful for neurotypical children.

This is absolutely amazing advice. Best thing I’ve ever read on mums net!!

For a child who is already feeling pushed out and in need of extra TLC, time outs are an absolute no no as it will simply reinforce his feelings of isolation. I think it’s really really important to remember that he is only 5 and if he asks for your help in the act of dressing himself then please indulge him. It’s not that he can’t dress himself but he doesn’t have the vocabulary or emotional development to say ‘please show me TLC Mama’.

Go to tnlc.info. They have all the answers if you are prepared to put the effort in and follow their guidance.

Long and short, for whatever reason they are going to need tight, consistent parenting.

Make Christmas easier.. Bag of chocolate coins. . Collect one when you are dressed... Even you op!