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Original poster

Blazing row about Michael Jackson

644 replies

PLP432 · 07/12/2023 12:44

I know it sounds ridiculous on the face of it but hear me out.

I was in a shop with DP last night and they were playing Michael Jackson music. I commented that I don't like hearing his music as I can't get past everything he did. Yes, I know he wasn't convicted but he openly admitted to sleeping in bed with random children, showering together and whatever else.

DP said "we have different opinions on that, he's a really good artist" to which I replied something about Rolph Harris being a good artist and Jimmy Saville being a good fund raiser.

DP then goes on to say he doesn't think MJ did anything untoward with the children and he thinks it's all innocent and because he had a "childlike mind" due to not having a proper childhood.

I said that was no excuse and plenty of people have bad or unusual childhoods and don't groom children.

He was getting defensive and talking about how he was found not guilty in court, to which I pointed out how few rape and sexual abuse cases even make it to court let alone conviction.

I asked whether he'd listened to anything the men on Leaving Neverland said before he formed his opinion that MJ wasn't guilty of anything. He said no, and refused to look it up.

It descended into a row and I was very hurt by some of the things he said, as I have a history of child sexual abuse and rape - which he knows all about.

I asked him whether he would have gladly left our DS in the company of someone like MJ unsupervised and he took a while to answer before saying "I don't know"

I said how that concerned me from a safeguarding perspective to which he took huge offence, started shouting and told me to return all of the presents i'd bought him as he doesnt want them anymore, the immature dickhead.

Now we're not talking.

Was I being unreasonable here?

OP posts:
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LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:11

I mean at the very least - we KNOW he shared beds with pre-pubescent boys, who absolutely adored him and then Jackson discarded them once they reached a certain age, replacing them with a new young boy friend. At very best that’s the kind of thing he did. Again and again for years. What do his apologists have to say about that? How can you justify such revolting behaviour? Even if you don’t think he was a child molester (and REALLY how can you not?!) - what do you say to that?

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:13

TizerorFizz · 07/12/2023 13:03

I agree with that summary but it’s somewhat irrelevant. They are dead. Whatever does it matter to your dc what Michael Jackson did? All you need to do is keep your own dc safe.

Personally I think teaching children about MJ - a man still reverted whose music is played probably every day on any given radio station - is absolutely ideal. Telling them what grooming looks like, and how Jackson groomed normal kids. How people who are talented and popular can be pedophiles. How sadly the world turns a blind eye to bad behaviour and their generation has to be the ones to do better than their predecessors.

But that’s just me

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:15

ANightingale · 07/12/2023 13:05

One difference is that MJ left behind a musical legacy.

Let's say in another, better universe, Savile hadn't been a paedophile, just a TV presenter and fundraiser - what would he have left behind? Very little. You might have seen back episodes of Jim'll Fix IT on some obscure TV channel and he wouldn't have been edited from nostalgic TOTP reruns, but I think he would have been more or less forgotten by now, and not known at all by those born after his time.

Edited
Show quote history

I disagree - he was knighted, he was extremely popular, he had streets named after him (that have now been renamed I believe). He left a huge legacy, but us Brits have done a cracking job of tearing it down posthumously

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:16

mollyfolk · 07/12/2023 13:07

I think suggesting you had safeguarding concerns was very hurtful maybe? Do you really ? Or did you take the argument very personally because of your history which is fair enough.

I mean the rest of the argument is just a disagreement- it’s not like he’ll rise from the dead.

Surely it’s perfectly healthy to have safeguarding concerns about someone who doesn’t believe a man (and a very obvious pedophile) can’t be a pedophile because, essentially, he’s good at his job? I wish more people would eke out the safeguarding concerns this way. I’d feel exactly the same.

Mirabai · 15/12/2023 18:20

People have been asked to come forward.

Not as part of an official public investigation.

It’s clear at this point @Tourniquet81 is completely round the twist so there’s no point arguing further.

MargaritaThyme · 15/12/2023 18:20

Michael Jackson was a genius. One of the greatest singers & performers in the history of popular music. The way he & Quincy Jones fused soul, R&B & rock music on his classic albums of the 80s has never been matched. At his peak, he was unquestionably the biggest star in the world, and deservedly so.

He was also a serial predatory paedophile who paid out $millions to lawyers, as bribes to corrupt officials and to obtain NDAs in order to silence the many child victims he abused.

Both of these things can be true, because that is who & what he was.

ANightingale · 15/12/2023 18:23

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:15

I disagree - he was knighted, he was extremely popular, he had streets named after him (that have now been renamed I believe). He left a huge legacy, but us Brits have done a cracking job of tearing it down posthumously

Show quote history

I don't think that kind of legacy means much popularly. I used to live on a street named after an architect who had been knighted - I only knew that because I looked the name up.

Tourniquet81 · 15/12/2023 18:26

Indeed. Being able to read, hear what is said and just knowing things is ‘being round the twist”. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Yet you’re the one that can’t refute a single point of any of it with factual primary source evidence. You just parrot media stories 😂 Funny how everybody knows the media always talks undiluted cobblers….yet when it comes to Jackson, you think they’re 100% accurate 😂😂 That’s some mental gymnastics right there.

Having an opinion is fine but when all available facts and evidence prove your opinion to be completely and utterly wring and unfounded and then you insist on sticking to that opinion anyway then it is no longer an exchange on any intellectual level.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:32

CatamaranViper · 07/12/2023 13:19

There are many, many celebrities who have done shocking things in their personal lives.

Mark Wahlberg - racist behaviour and attempted murder
Snoop Dogg - charged with murder
Matthew Broderick - killed someone due to dangerous driving
Tim Allen - drug trafficking
Sid Vicious - accused of murdering his gf
Coco Chanel - named as a Nazi informant
Jack Nicholson - assaulting women
Sean Penn - attacking Madonna

These are just the ones I can think of. Most of these have either left a legacy which hasn't been cancelled or are still in the limelight.
I do understand that what MJ was accused of was horrendous, but if we're going to 'shun' celebrities and their legacy because of what they've been accused of, then you need to apply that to everyone.

I would say that the difference is Jackson used his power and star status as the very tools to groom people in order to carry out his crimes

Tourniquet81 · 15/12/2023 18:33

Of course they can be true. Geniuses are by nature always troubled in some way or another. Seems part of the deal.

The problem here however is that he is accused of molesting kids in multiple buildings 6 years before they were constructed, at events we now know he didn’t attend, in continents we now know he hadn’t travelled to, of kidnapping families in hot air balloons and all within time lines requiring a Delorian. Not even Jackson is talented enough to pull that off and anybody who believes that is possible needs to wobble their head.

Also, we know he didn’t pay out millions in bribes because the Forensic Accountants brought in by the prosecution listed what they found and not a soul has ever come forward with knowledge of this. Not even some maggot selling such a tale to the media. In fact the media hasn’t even gone that stupid with their stories so far. This is literally the most stupid and desperate argument I have ever heard from somebody who believes his guilt 😂😂😂 Could you imagine a black man being allowed to get away with molesting kids in America….that’s America of all countries we are talking here 😂😅😂😅😂

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:34

PrinceHaz · 07/12/2023 13:26

If you’ve watched Neverland, it leaves you feeling in little doubt. Those young men were destroyed.

Those two amazing men have a very good podcast about turning trauma into triumph. They speak to guests who were victims of abuse. It’s really worth a listen and you can honestly hear the pain in their voices.

Tourniquet81 · 15/12/2023 18:37

Again, exactly my point. He didn’t ‘want sleepovers with boys’. We know this because of the hundreds of people who have stayed speaking out both in court, to Police and in interviews. Turns out rather than spooning in his bed alone like a couple, there were always plenty of people there in his 2000sq ft 2 story ‘bedroom’. Men, woman, boys, girls, family, friends and even staff. This whole sleeping with boys thing was only invented during the trial and parroted by the media ever since. When the stories fell apart with their own witnesses the jury didn’t buy their narrative.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:37

Mumof2teens79 · 07/12/2023 13:35

You acted unreasonably and were pretty horrid refusing to see anything from his POV and then suggesting he isn't safe to care for your child.
I imagine he was pretty upset.
He made reasonable concessions and admitted when he was unsure.
You have already made up your mind and refuse to change it.

Finding neverland was a tipping point for me, if he hasn't seen it then it's understandto still be on the fence.
MJ was a very odd person.
But his case is very different to that of either Saville or Harris...who are different to each other.
And his legacy is different too.
Comparing his music - which is art, was often innovative and ground breaking and global, and can be enjoyed independently of liking the artist to either Savilles fundraising (not art, not going to be enjoyed in future, but people will still be benefitting from things paid for with his fundraising....should they stop?)
Or Harris (he could draw, and present TV but hasn't left lasting works of art that have value in their own right beyond some early comedic songs)
Comparing them is disingenuous.

Comparing them is disingenuous.

How?

They are all pedophiles.

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:39

PinkLemons99 · 07/12/2023 13:36

I think it’s very dangerous to decide that someone is guilty of a crime when they haven’t been given a fair trial, let alone convicted, regardless of who they are or their alleged crimes.

On that basis alone, YABU.

In that case, Jimmy Saville is innocent

How about we centre victims

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:43

EachandEveryone · 07/12/2023 13:41

Woody Allen is strange I agree however, he was never found guilty of anything and was thoroughly investigated twice.

He married his step daughter.

WTAF

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:49

Zapzep · 07/12/2023 13:52

“I said that was no excuse and plenty of people have bad or unusual childhoods and don't groom children.”

grooming would mean that he was knowingly manipulating the children for sexual purposes, we don’t know that was the case, he may of just been just been (mentally) a child himself, remember that people would be less likely to be diagnosed with autism etc back then.

Yeah sure, he just had a merry go-round of boys aged 5-12 for years (who he shared bets with) for no other reason than he liked to play board games with them. Doesn’t smack of grooming at all

I seriously worry about some people’s safety judgement.

Whingebob · 15/12/2023 18:49

Surely it’s perfectly healthy to have safeguarding concerns about someone who doesn’t believe a man (and a very obvious pedophile) can’t be a pedophile because, essentially, he’s good at his job?

Safeguarding concentration over Michael Jackson is as ridiculous as it gets. Maybe op should divorce her DH if she genuinely worries? Or maybe she can just accept that he had a different opinion (which has now changed, as opinions do)?

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:51

VanityDiesHard · 07/12/2023 13:59

I watched Leaving Neverland and I don't believe the men. I don't really think you can compare MJ to Savile.

@VanityDiesHard why don’t you believe the men? You think them and their families orchestrated a massive catalogue of lies, backed up by evidence, and acted their arses off? and that the very obvious nonce who openly ‘befriended’ little boys and shares beds with them is the victim in all this?

Do you have children?

Original poster
PLP432 · 15/12/2023 18:54

Tourniquet81 · 15/12/2023 18:37

Again, exactly my point. He didn’t ‘want sleepovers with boys’. We know this because of the hundreds of people who have stayed speaking out both in court, to Police and in interviews. Turns out rather than spooning in his bed alone like a couple, there were always plenty of people there in his 2000sq ft 2 story ‘bedroom’. Men, woman, boys, girls, family, friends and even staff. This whole sleeping with boys thing was only invented during the trial and parroted by the media ever since. When the stories fell apart with their own witnesses the jury didn’t buy their narrative.

Michael Jackson HIMSELF confirms he slept in his BED with boys. It wasn't made up during the trial ffs. Sure, his bedroom was massive.. so why would he need to be in bed with any of the children in there?

OP posts:
LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 18:56

Sweepies · 07/12/2023 14:08

I think the difference between Saville and Jackson is Saville had literally 100s of people come forward. Jackson initially had one person come forward whom he paid money to drop the case due to pressure from his music company (he couldn't tour during the legal proceedings) and he was very vocal about being against this decision. When it happened again and he went to court where he was found not guilty.

Then there were the guys from leaving neverland, who have both proven to be incredibly unreliable. Both are attempting to sue his estate despite previously saying they had no interest in money. Both have been caught in multiple untruths.

It's also worth mentioning that the FBI searched his house top to bottom and found nothing, and that he had security cameras everywhere which were managed by an outside security company due to the size of the property and yet no tangible evidence of abuse was ever found. A lot of people highlight that he "let children sleep in his bed", he actually has always denied this, he would sleep in another bed or on the floor.

"Okay but he let them sleep in his bedroom which is weird enough!" His "bedroom" spanned across multiple floors and was bigger than some peoples houses. All of this can be easily verified. By the way as I am also a victim of sexual abuse so please do not misunderstand me, I'm just saying there is a lot of information on either side and it's important to get things correct. Leaving Neverland is a very very bad source of information.

Show quote history

Jackson initially had one person come forward

Wrong.

Allegations dated back way before Jordy Chandler

he paid money to drop the case due to pressure from his music company

Which is not the actions of an innocent man.

(he couldn't tour during the legal proceedings

Can you point to the legislation on this please?

Also his History tour didn’t start til ‘96 - tours and schedules are organised years in advance. There is nothing to say this was planned for 1995.

Then there were the guys from leaving neverland, who have both proven to be incredibly unreliable

How so?

It's also worth mentioning that the FBI searched his house top to bottom and found nothing

Wrong. They found books with naked pictures of boys in

Tourmalines · 15/12/2023 19:03

Paedophile Jackson

LeaveBritneyAlone · 15/12/2023 19:06

Mirabai · 15/12/2023 19:04

In fact the earliest recorded target was a British man named Terry George, MJ befriended when he was 21 and George 13.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/first-target-of-michael-jacksons-obsession-402845

The lad from Leeds? Yes I remember him - but he’s obviously a big fat liar and his lies are preventing people from enjoying Billie Jean 🙄

QueenofTerrasen · 15/12/2023 19:14

You told him you were concerned about his parenting over a needless argument about a dead celebrity neither of you ever met.
You had different opinions, it sounds like you were goading for a fight tbh, and what you said was unnecessary and cruel.
The whole thing is beyond stupid.

Tourniquet81 · 15/12/2023 19:15

Yeah, family and friends like Culkin and Barnes who defend him to this day. Not some random kid he’s invited over like you need it to be 😂😂

Kit Culkin, Karen Faye and Joy Robson all state how that’s what they would do. Everybody pile on the huge bed and watch movies and play video games til they fell asleep. The size of his bedroom matters because you’re all so hooked on the term ‘bedroom’. It’s bigger than most houses and would be where people hung out when not on the ranch. In my house it’s the kitchen but if I had a room that was 2000sq ft it would be there.

The actual allegations being ignored and this being the focus proves nobody believes them.

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