To think the 'Net Contributors' argument is just wrong?

[Yetmorebeanstocount]

Just been reading about "Net Contributors" of tax and how it supposedly is a bad thing that we don't have enough in this country.
i.e. - that most people receive more, in cash benefits, social care, NHS, police, education, roads, bin collections etc. etc. than they will ever pay for via their taxes, so they are 'net recipients' of the system rather than 'net contributors'.

My reaction is - well yes of course. That is how it should be!

Take a very-over-simplified example to illustrate the maths:

Say there are 100 people who earn £1k, and one person who earns £200k. Say the 100 pay no taxes, and the one person pays tax at 50% of £100k.

That tax gets re-distributed to the 100 people in the form of services and benefits and pensions, so that the 100 now have the equivalent of £2k each and the one person still has £100k.
What is supposed to be wrong with this? It is just basic re-distribution of income, which is something that every civilised society should do.

Of course in real life people earn all sorts of amounts and receive different things, so it is not so simple, but the principle is the same - a few at the top are 'net contributors' and the rest are 'net recipients'.

And of course, those at the top still get something back as they drive on roads and have their bins collected, and have the benefit of living in a civilised society which is policed and (mostly) does not have people dying on the streets.

On a lunch break and here you are being horribly abusive on the internet again. Serious question. Have you thought about being less angry and making your situation better?

Or even work from home policies/flexible working policies. Yet companies still want you to come to the office a few days a week , forcing a lot of people having to live in cities.

@lkwhjis you are also forgetting corporate tax. The country isn’t run purely from individual’s pockets.

Perhaps if the government cut benefits to working people and made private companies actually pay employees a living wage, there would be more cash swilling about.

The Uk effectively subsidises companies who underpay their workers.

I’m not being angry or abusive at all. You seem like someone who is used to holding forth with absolute nonsense regularly and who is unused to being challenged on it. Have you ever considered checking your facts - you might be less triggered by people pointing out errors if you bothered to do a cursory investigation before spouting crap.

How nice it would be if these threads didn’t turn into personal slanging matches.

Sorry you are right I promise to stop it.

Less anger and you maybe happier. I’m not the one who is triggered hurling expletives and anger over every post. Judging by the likes people agree with me.

Every so often, a controversial topic turns into a genuinely useful discussion of a topic most people can't chew over with their nearest and dearest. Factual comments, with stats and links wherever possible, raise the level of debate and provide us all with fuel to make sensible comments and offer thoughtful suggestions. I am not, for example, acquainted with anyone trying to cross the Channel in a small rubber boat and don't understand why the UK is so much more appealing than France (I'd love to live in France, but it's complicated post-hard Brexit).

Hilariously tragic.

Here are a few statistical facts. The UK housing market is worth £8.7tn, out of which over £5tn is held by those aged over 50, including boomers. Private pension wealth is valued at £6.5tn, and again, this wealth is held by the older generations.
Additionally, it is observed that the average British-born worker's output per hour is lower than that of an economic migrant. This points to Britain's productivity problem, where some workers are subsidizing others. According to the MAC report, migrants in high- and low-skilled occupations are more productive than their UK-born counterparts, with the central estimates suggesting that the marginal migrant is approximately 2.5 times as productive as a UK-born worker.

The UK has serious structural issues with illiquid assets and an indigenous workforce with poor productivity. It would be great to have unlimited funds for public services but who is going to fund these services?

Tbh that figure on assets held and who holds them is a telling one. I do think once the Labour Party come in they will have to look at CGT and other ideas about asset tax. It will be a difficult issue but with an ageing population it has to happen. Part of the reason we have low productivity is connected with income tax, how it is structured and the incentives to work for a salaried income.

We cannot end up as some sort of asset hoarding geriatric nation; but it's what we are in danger of if we don't have sensible conversations on migration, tax and housing.

It would be great to have unlimited funds for public services but who is going to fund these services?

We don’t need unlimited funds. Tax take is the highest for 70 years and set to increase thanks to fiscal drag. There’s plenty of money but it’s being squandered - the £250 million for Rwanda is just one example.

The Tories are asset stripping for their personal benefit.

It’s hardly a surprise that older people have more in private pensions.

The analysis of productivity needs careful consideration - migrant workers may only be employed for roles in which they can be highly productive - that doesn’t make them inherently more productive.

It’s also hardly surprising that home ownership is higher among older people. Not in any way denying the generational issues that have arisen from the Tory suppression of wages and lack of investment, but if you have had longer to accumulate wealth, you have a better chance of having some.

Seriously, what services do we get for taxes now?

I can't get any healthcare. The NHS doesn't work at all. At all. The trains don't work. The police don't do anything apart from apparently dick around on Twitter. There is rubbish everywhere. There is human shit floating in all the rivers.

No kids in school so I'm not getting that service and can't speak to that. IME the only public service that works is HMRC.

£250m isn't even a drop in the ocean.

Well, hundreds of billions are being spent on the NHS, police, public transport, armed forces, benefits, care, roads, emergency services, so it's going somewhere. A hundred billion is also paying the interest on our huge national debt!

We have the highest tax burden in 70 years. I think we should go for a smaller state and lower taxes.

As for older people having more value for the 70% of older people who own a home (and pensions) that is partly because they are older. My father used the last of his life savings on at home care in his last year of life for example so it is not always that the old do not need their money when older. Others of them help their children with housing and finally the state takes 40% of most of what I have when I die - inheritance tax.

@user1497207191 it is going into the hands of the tories and their friends. It is asset stripping and corruption.

Add all those “drops in the ocean” together and you have a tsunami of money. It’s utterly defeatist to say a quarter of a billion misspent doesn’t make any difference.

Yes, this is the point; where is it going? Spain has loads of problems, youth unemployment, housing crisis, corruption scandals, and yet it is possible to get a train to work.

Why can't the binman come? I'm happy to pay for services. There just aren't really any services? The social contract is breaking down. It's like America now; the government just taxes and patrols you and gives you nothing in return.

Take note. Leave before Labour is in and you are deemed a wealth holder. Just early 50s. My family has worked and pay obscene amounts of high income taxes for years. We have a pension and a house with mortgage as with the high income taxes have not being cleared yet. A house and a pension is expected at our age after years of putting in the effort. It would be criminal that now a new government with form for jealousy and envy as seen with the private schools vat come and squeeze more taxes from us. How is that fair? and how are we supposed to look after ourselves and live on our last years for which we plan and worked for years. For what to pay for people who never added to the system here.

Last time Labour was in, I could see my doctor and our street was cleaned. And the taxes were lower!

Same. And I had an NHS dentist - anyone else remember those?

My family has worked and pay obscene amounts of high income taxes for years.
Obscene? Really?