Do you think the new £38K income visa threshold for UK spouse visas is fair?

[zendeveloper]

It is set at the same level as for work visas.

Feels completely crazy to me, but then, I am also an immigrant (although the changes don't affect me), so probably too sensitive to the topic. Would be interesting to hear MN opinion.

There’s a blinkered opinion that measures one’s value to society in purely monetary terms. So people earning less that 40k are a ‘drain on the system’. But we actually need people to work in jobs paying less than 38k. Who empties your bins? Looks after your toddlers? Makes your restaurant meals? Cares for livestock? Butchers your meat? Without those ‘drain on the system’ type jobs, our society would soon collapse. Enough of this myth that people earning under 40k take more out than they put in. However rich you are, you can’t do without those people. Are they less worthy of marriage?

“household as a whole”.

Does that include two couples living together, or four people living together? That would make it easier to hit the targets?

No it is based purely on a couple. The UK Home Office classifies the British spouse as the "sponsor" throughout the process. Plus, only the British spouse may use their income to meet the threshold during the first application if their spouse is outside of the UK.

So most couples will earn over £38k when they are both working. No problem. But the real barrier is that a lot of British people can't meet the threshold just with their income to meet the requirements of the first visa.

It's essentially a very cruel way of blocking the pathway for 75% of the population.

I wonder what fraction of a fraction of net migration that this change to family visas will even affect?

I'm not trying to gaslight anyone fgs just passing on my observations, obviously immigration needs to be controlled but I think this knee jerk reaction is cruel and unnecessary, panicking people who are in the process of visa applications by more than doubling the salary requirement is adding stress to an already stressful situation, maybe they should get their finger out. sort out all the pending asylum claims and allow those people to work which would bring down the job vacancies a little bit

Wow well put! :)

Unfortunately citizens are not legally obligated to support their spouse after divorce so this law keeps a spouse from becoming tax payers liability. I do feel sorry for people but it’s not worth bankrupting services for our children and grandchildren!

There are billions of unskilled people from poor countries and it isn’t sustainable to our economic future to allow them all to become citizens and receive the benefits of developed public systems.

And unfortunately there is a lot of fraud. I know personally of an example of someone marrying a Russian woman for citizenship. She was alcoholic who spoke no English and had no job skills. She wasn’t capable of working because she drank liters of vodka all day and she had a disabled daughter (she drank while pregnant) who also became citizen.

After they got citizenship they were divorced and ejected from the house. They were of no use to the people who helped them immigrate so now they are entitled to free education, housing, and health care for all their medical issues. Lots of medical issues. Taxpayers are paying all this as they have no ability to pay into the system. They simply found a man who was willing to marry and support them for a few years. I think family in Russia paid for visa fraud somehow, or they were literally prostitutes since the daughter was 13 (I suspect both as possible)

This happens a lot! And it has also enabled organized crime from former Soviet countries Asia and Latin America. It isn’t fair to future generations. Would you let a bunch of homeless drug addicts come into your home and throw your children on the street? No, it would be very unfair

You do realise "our children and grandchildren" are also the children of these spouses. Equating spouses with, homeless drug addicts? Seriously? One person divorced their alcoholic wife? Hardly a representative study is it?
The thinly veiled racism and xenophobia is appalling.

This happens a lot! And it has also enabled organized crime from former Soviet countries Asia and Latin America. It isn’t fair to future generations. Would you let a bunch of homeless drug addicts come into your home and throw your children on the street? No, it would be very unfair

Shh, my hubby don't know I'm a Latin American gangsta.

hides the machine gun under her large mustachios

You utter fool.

Thanks for your concern for our children. They're a bit more bothered that one of their parents faces deportation.

Are you seriously saying this is a fair policy based on your very unique anecdote?

(The Prime Minister’s spokesman said that while the minimum income rules for family visas will not apply retrospectively, they will apply when existing visas for foreign spouses come up for renewal.

this is disgusting. People,will have made decisions based on the old rules, left their old lives behind, moved here, possibly have had children believing they were safe here because they comfortably met the requirements. And now they may be kicked out? Away from their children?

Does anyone know what the Foreign Office pays graduates in their mid-20s? I know one young diplomat-in-training who may have to hope for a first overseas posting before his wife's visa comes up for renewal, and a big pay rise before returning to the UK.

I am not sure of his current salary, but I suspect they would be in the ridiculous position of being allowed to live together while representing the UK overseas, in accommodation paid for by the British government, but not being eligible to live together in the UK. This is how cruel and stupid the policy is.

In all honesty I would assume in those specific circumstances the rules would be, ahem, massaged.

Diplomats get a pass for a LOT of things.

@Seagrassbasket I have to hope you are right, though if we still have anything like the current lot in power, I would not be so sure.

And I wonder about people in the military too?

I know another young couple who are almost certainly going to be affected at visa renewal time (he is also mid-20s, they are both creative types, getting by but not in high-paying jobs). I don't know what they will do.

And there are others in my extended family who have already had to jump through hoops and some who have failed. One family spent two years in Ireland to get in on the Surinder Singh route, now no longer available post-Brexit; luckily I think the overseas spouse now has settled status so won't be caught out on the visa renewal.

Another who has been married decades but lived overseas; her husband has been unable to join her and their two children here after she came back to support elderly parents, and retrain in a different career (worthy but low paid), and yet another who is living and working in Asia with his wife and three children and will now probably never be able to return to the UK.

These are all British citizens, born and bred, who married years ago and had children, and will be denied the right to a family life in the country of their birth and citizenship purely on financial grounds.

@exexpat According to the BBC, people employed on "national pay scales", for example nurses, teachers etc are exempt from these new higher limits.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67623131

It may be the case that civil servants are also exempt as well, but I don't know.

As I understand things, graduates with five years experience (so mid to late 20s) will certainly be earning above this limit in any event.

@exexpat Sorry, also to say that if his wife is already in the UK and works then her salary is also counted towards the £38k requirement.

The bit about it only being the British spouse's salary applies just to families where the foreign spouse is not already in this country.

@Another2Cats I think the national pay scales thing just applies to overseas workers applying for visas in their own right; the family visa thing is purely on income (it's a separate section in the BBC news story).

And the problem with being a wife of a diplomat is that your career is very disrupted, so if/when they return to the UK after an overseas posting she probably will not have a job waiting for her, so her visa would be assessed on his income, as far as I understand the rules. But of course I hope I am wrong.

From Colin Yeo, immigration barrister.

Imho applying iy to renewal of already existing visa IS basicaly applying it retrospectively and that is shitty.

This is so damaging for our country, in addition to being awful for those affected.

I work in a sector where talented people doing vital work that benefits all of our health would be at risk of deportation.

This government seems determined to break as much as it can this last year.

Yes, foreign born people are massively over represented in the health and social care industries, and there doesn't seem to be any plan to replace them now that they can't, or won't want to come. Scary really.

This is a very interesting take. In my case, I moved to the UK when I was 26. I am university educated and now a higher tax payer. In my case, the UK paid for none of the things talked about on this thread like childcare or university, but now I am paying disproportionally back into the system. Even if I had a child, I would still be a net contributor - by a wide margin.

So when folks talk about net contributors, consider that most immigrants aren't going to be using services that are the heaviest burden on the state, like schooling or state pensions. We literally arrive in our prime earning years to contribute.

Indeed. I'd rather pay for private health insurance (as is quite standard when working in foreign countries) than the NHS surcharge, as if I ever required such services at least I would be able to access them.

In fact it would also be good if NI were not deducted from spouses' wages, since on the whole they cannot claim benefits, draw a pension or use the NHS. For the most part such immigrants are paying for services they cannot avail themselves of.

By all means start charging them for that if they have the desire and means to apply for leave to remain or become a citizen. But as the welfare system is more generous in my country (as well as the health care system being more accessible), I'd have stayed at home if going on welfare were my nefarious endgame.

I just want to live with my family and pay my way.

What does £38.7k annual salary mean? Does it mean double the minimum annual wage? Does it average annual earning? Where did the £38700 salary come from?

I was browsing the Migration Observatory reports yesterday, and there's some very interesting stats on migrants earnings and occupations.IMO, it will be a painful transition if we block migration without filling the gaps first. These new restrictions are putting the cart before the horse and its neither fair nor sensible. I don't think it's a realistic expectation that "native" brits are able or willing to replace the lost taxes or labor.