Do you think the new £38K income visa threshold for UK spouse visas is fair?

[zendeveloper]

It is set at the same level as for work visas.

Feels completely crazy to me, but then, I am also an immigrant (although the changes don't affect me), so probably too sensitive to the topic. Would be interesting to hear MN opinion.

I also looked deeper into some statistics after the discussions here yesterday. The latest statistics from Oxford found the only negative net contributors in the country were.... British natives.

It's getting some media traction now, even in the Murdoch press.

We need to coordinate somehow, protest this en masse.

Is there a petition?

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/uk-citizens-will-have-fewer-rights-than-migrants-under-new-family-visa-rules-researchers-say-13024220

Search for a Facebook group called Reunite Families UK. There is an organisation campaigning against this. also Joint Council for Welfare Of Immigrants (JCWI)and I Love My Foreign Spouse on Face book. Look for these on Twitter too.

Care pays pretty much minimum wage. As do other sectors such as supermarkets and other retail; a lot of hospitality; a lot of leisure.

A lot of people find care unattractive when compared to similar money in another sector. It's not just the unpleasant parts of the job that are off putting but the fact you are unlikely to be able to influence your shifts much. They are likely to be random and anti-social hours. You are also likely to be put under pressure to do additional shifts when you don't want to. I think in other sectors you are more likely to have set hours and they are more likely to work around your preferences for e.g. mornings.

E.g. if you are a parent with a working partner why would you try to work around random care shifts when a supermarket will allow you fixed mornings or evenings for the same hourly rate?

Sectors that I mentioned above do also often pay more than care and have perks such as tips or staff discount.

I remember seeing an advert for an assistant for Subway the sandwich shop and realising on their first day making sanwiches they will earn the same as I do after years in care and all the training I have done (medication, safeguarding, autism, all sorts of health courses, fire warden, First aid etc etc. and the responsibility of the work we do). I expect they get a staff discount on the food too.

If you can force or incentivise people into work a lot of people are still going to go for anything other than care - that's why wages for care should rise in comparison to the other similar paying sectors.

Fortunately for me I really like my job but I can see parts of it are off-putting.

Realistically, reducing immigration even modestly is not going to happen unless Brits are OK with working several more years on average, and prepared to keep themselves in physically better shape so that they are able to do so.

I don't see much sign of this happening, though.

The Nordic and many East Asian countries seem to be able to manage OK-ish with less immigration, for the moment. (I know Sweden has quite a bit of immigration, but that seems to be about "being kind to refugees" rather than desperately trying to fill vacant posts). But these are countries where populations are slimmer, sprier and healthier into old age - more walking, better diet. And people of all ages have a more austere work ethic. Not saying that's always a good thing, to be honest, but it probably does help when it comes to getting older folk to stay in the workforce longer.

Meanwhile, in the UK, years of "healthy life expectancy" have gone down slightly, not up, in recent years, and obesity rates are worse than ever following the pandemic. I'm always seeing posts on here about people saying "AIBU to retire at 53?" The responses are generally along the lines of "as long as you've got the money, GO FOR IT, girl!" Of course, people do have the right to retire early if they have the private means to afford to do so. Just making the point that if you are a society which is broadly OK with this and is not inclined to shame those who retire from the workforce early, you'll need more immigration to fill the gaps.

A lot of other over 55s I know have "retired" to basically do childcare for their grandchildren. The UK has among the highest daycare costs in the world, in part due to insisting on very high adult-child ratios. These could be reduced, but again, it's all about deciding that you are OK with some trade offs.

Starting to feel like we should build on all the golf courses, judging by the number of my father's doctor friends who have retired in their 50s to basically play golf all week....

Asian countries look after their elderly at home. We will be moving to that soon.

Interestingly that is now being under threat in many countries where it was a standard because families now have to work. DH's family is having that issue. The younger ones simply cannot afford for just 1 person to work anymore so there is nearly no one at home to do the care as it used to be. With the next gen who is soon entering adulthood, sahm/sahw (who was traditionally the carer) will be impossible financally for most people.

You make good points. We are unhealthier generally and also less likely to do care at home. Both these mean higher immigration

We either see those high net migration figures that everyone went nuts about (although you can get them down a bit before getting to care workers) or we pay loads more for care homes, or we do it ourselves

Completely ignores the reason why some are unemployed and not everyone would want just about anyone doing care work for their relatives, I know I wouldn't

Realistically, reducing immigration even modestly is not going to happen unless Brits are OK with working several more years on average, and prepared to keep themselves in physically better shape so that they are able to do so

According to recent figures 145k care workers came in on visas (2022/23) they bought with then an ADDITIONAL 175k dependents.

Same with students.

& yes dependents can include parents plus no limit on family sizes, many dev countries have bigger families than most in Europe.

Why could we manage just a few years ago with migration around 200k net but now we need 750k but aren't even filling the vacancies? and why are we so reliant on students to fund Uni's ? if they are sooooo underfunded, why the fcuk was 20billion handed out in tax cut bribes?

Something is very amiss, so i disagree there is nothing we can do, just needs a change in political will.

Typed out a whole response and it disappeared. But intl students are definitely not allowed to bring parents as dependants. Only spouses and kids, AFAIK. Please show me evidence to the contrary @User123456713

That would likely mean at least one of the people at home giving up work to look after them. I don't think carer's allowance covers a wage....some people won't be able to afford to do this.

I work on healthcare. At least 50% of our department are immigrants as no-one in the uk wants the shit pay and hours. They are very competent and hard working.

What will happen to healthcare when this is implemented? Not many apart from doctors earn more.

I was referring to the 145k care workers bringing in 175k dependents, in my post, defo can bring in dependent parents.

Yes 100% students cannot bring in parents.

The numbers of adult dependent relative visas are really really tiny. In the hundreds at most, most likely single figures or none at all.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/family-migration-to-the-uk/

I didn't say they were but 175k dependent visas for 145k workers seems very poor value.

Then there is older HK residents coming here, i'm all for asylum seekers fleeing war but i'm at a loss as to why HK falls into this camp.

A few years ago we had freedom of movement so visas weren't required for EU citizens, that may be some of the reason why visa applications were down, this jump in figures must have a logical reason

I thought that has become the de facto policy really given the difficulty of making arrangements or funding them. Our society is busy putting women back into unpaid "service roles" unless you have the means to pay.

It's another point really but there are a lot of deluded people in the UK on class money and status; but when it comes to old age there is little to no plan except the state. It's a very bad plan for retirement and old age because you have little or no control over what a government choosing to spend. Routinely horrified by posts on here saying that they will rely on the state pension, a ticket to poverty.

Is it poor value though? How do you determine that?

No, the net figures from FOM days inc EU nationals coming here.

The fact is though that we didn't have so many foreign students nor did EU workers bring in so many dependants, the ones i worked with tended to young, mobile, here for a years and then return, which they did for two reasons, Brexit and ex Soviet bloc countries economies improved.

Many of course stayed but all the migrants from Africa SE Asia will stay & thats fine if thats what we want and have the facilities for.

Why could we manage just a few years ago with migration around 200k net but now we need 750k but aren't even filling the vacancies?

Brexit.

Have we got 100s of '000s of extra school places? GP services? housing?

I don't know, anecdotally, no we have not.

These 145k are care workers, NMW jobs, i don't know if they have access to public funds, ie in work benefits.

Something is only too expensive if you can a) do without it or b) get it cheaper elsewhere.
It's all well and good saying it's too many people, but there doesn't seem to a good answer as to how we will manage without them. Perhaps I'm too much of a cynic, but I suspect the Tories are relying on the net migration figures making good enough headlines that they are a distraction from granny's declining care.
And no. They don't have access to benefits. No recourse to public funds.

Notwithstanding he general discussion on migration, a government which tells its own citizens they’re only worthy of marrying who they want if they earn more than 75% of the population is petty and spiteful. Spousal visas are a small proportion of visas issued.