Work situation - is this reasonable?

[Floofydawg]

I'm in a mid senior role in financial services. Work part time (4 days, not condensed) but still get a full time workload done. Am expected to travel around once a month for work which ends up in me doing more than my paid hours that week. I don't get that time back and I still have to get my work done.

Next Monday I've been asked to travel for a department wide 'away day' which will basically just be a talking shop. This would mean me leaving home at 6.30am and not getting back til around 8pm. I've said I'm not going and my manager is trying to pressure me. AIBU to stick to my guns?

OP, working while not sleeping because of menopause is absolute hell.

You need to suit yourself.
You need to care less.
Do not be rushed into any exit, but definitely start caring less.

This is a common theme from women our age.

Start pushing back very very hard and so what if targets aren't met.

You work reduced hours, it is on them if they need more people.

Stop being so accommodating.

It is thankless and gets you nowhere.

Start telling not asking your boss, just as you did re time in lieu.

That's my plan @billy1966. Next week I will only have 2.5 days out of the week to do actual work because of the away day, time off in lieu and then normal non-working day. I will get done what I can within those 2.5 days.

I think you need to watch your privilege here.

I totally agree don't do unpaid hours and make sure you're not doing as much as your full time compatriots.

I'm in financial services on a not dissimilar salary. It's easy to get disgruntled and feel others are doing less than you, but the acid test is could you get more for the same job elsewhere.

I'm 53 and an ( admittedly not brilliant ) work pension kicks in when I'm 60. I'm bloody lucky to get paid what I do and have the option to retire at 60 - and with that I will get off mumsnet.

@rookiemere I don't know what in my post suggested privilege? Is it because I'm suggesting that £65k isn't a megabucks salary? Because it's not, comparatively speaking within the industry where I work. That's not privilege, it's stating a fact. I know that others earn less than me - that's not what this thread is about.

I think you need to read the whole thread.

The OP is working a full time job for a part time wage including regular out of hours work and this wanky away day is just the straw that has broken the camel's back. She is stressed about the away day because there is no acknowledgement from her manager that this takes her away from work for a day but she is expected to "catch up" her regular work in her own time.

Absolute bollix, respectfully to the check your privilege.

My friend recently got the same bollix from her employer when her boss told her that they wanted her back in the office, no discussion. She's a chemical engineer and like the OP is not sleeping well at all.

She emailed her resignation, after 15 years, effective immediately. She said that she found his manner and tone offensive and will finish in 3 days due to time in lieu.

She turned her phone off and happily fxxked his weekend up completely.

She is in the happy position of not needing her salary due to a massive inheritance.

Her boss prostrated himself for her to rescind it, waiving the return to the office etc.,which she has refused.

Her reaction told her she needs at least 6 months off and she will re look at work next September.

She has told her boss she will look at what they can offer next September, but will make no promises.
She has resigned mid project because of him trying to change her working conditions of 4 years at home.
He was flexing for some reason and has massively shot himself in the foot tackling the wrong woman.
Huge egg on his face as it is now widely known she has left because he was insisting she return to the office.

Needless to say the whole needing her back in the office has gone right out the window.

She is not my only friend who has taken early retirement, TOLD their employer they are reducing their hours or leaving.

All these women are not easily replaced.

Screw checking their privilege.
Far better to know their worth, not tolerate being treated poorly and over worked and exploited.😁

My husband works for a large company and they are so careful with the whole hybrid model. They know it suits people and they do not want to lose valuable staff by being anything but accommodating.

Yes but most of us can't afford to retire mid fifties or get higher paid jobs elsewhere.

Maybe privilege is wrong, perspective may be more appropriate.

OP is relatively well paid - higher rate tax payer and more than double average wage if FTE.That certainly doesn't mean she should be working extra long hours or doing as much as her FT colleagues.

It does mean taking responsibility for your own well-being, realising that it's not unreasonable to be asked to go to meetings sometimes and absolutely getting your own time back in an assertive fashion is the way to go.

But it really shouldn't be normal. No other business contract or transaction works like this. In any other area of life, if you want more than was originally agreed, the person/company providing the goods or service has the option to either say no or charge more for the extra. What is the point of a contract otherwise? It is there so everyone is clear about what they'll get out of it. If it is both the norm and expected for an extra hour a day on top of standard FT hours, then the contract should state the role is 45hrs/wk. This should not slide in under a woolly clause using terms like 'occasional' and 'business need'.
Genuine occasional overtime should be properly remunerated where it is agreed to. It is fine to expect some flexibility from your employees if something crops up, but why on earth would you expect a freebie and all that good will to be one-sided? Would it be OK for the employee to turn round at the end of the month and say "I know we agreed you'd pay £2000pcm for my 40hrs/wk, but due to some unexpected bills I will need you to pay me £2200 this month"? It would be ridiculous, but is no different from what the employer is asking when they expect in excess of the agreement whilst offering nothing in return.

Did you miss the bit where I pointed out that the employment contract states that at times work outside core hours will be required. That statement is actually part of the contract.

And it is widely used in employment. In thirty years I have never had an employment contract that did not say it. Well until recently, when I decided to step away from senior roles, I now only need to work the hours exactly per my contract, but I also earn about a quarter, if that, of what I used to earn.

@billy1966 good on yer mate, absolutely love that story.

I've mentioned it upthread but a colleague who does the same role as me is going on long term leave shortly and they are struggling to get someone in on secondment. I was asked to cover their role as well as my own to which I politely said fuck off. It's not blowing my own trumpet to say they would be screwed without me if I disappeared at short notice right now.

They are rightly screwed without her too.

They will replace her, with an expensive contractor no doubt,....but mid project, not so easily. The project manager on the job is so pissed off that he wasn't in the loop on this.

She is not unhappy that it has happened. Like you the not sleeping has taken an awful toll and she doesn't want to go on HRT for medical reasons so is suffering on with supplements and the like.

She has finished work only very recently and is looking forward to a relaxing Christmas.

Their are 4 other women her age, also chemical engineers in her large department, that are loudly muttering about not being fully appreciated or paid sufficiently!

These actions often cause a ripple effect and they have seen first hand the collateral damage her sudden exit has caused.

Knowing your value is so important.

OP, you sound as if you will not be easily replaced.

You need to start muttering about taking extended leave to your boss and definitely keep looking for other jobs.

In the meantime, drop that rope!😁

That's the sound of the point whooshing over your head.

Financial sector is going into recession.

I mean by all means go around muttering under your breath as @billy1966 has suggested, I guess it might be a good strategy if you have a reasonable VR package.

I've already had a look at what jobs are out there for mid range financial services and unless you've got some really in demand niche skills, there are no £65k roles out there.

Or you could choose to act like a grown up and work commensurately with the hours your paid and have sensible discussions with your Line Manager if the workload is too high, which is I believe the line the OP is starting to take.

Also do you have any friends or allies at work OP? You seem angry with lots of people - your manager, people with young children, anyone working compressed hours. I find it really helpful to chat through any situations with colleagues I used to work with who have become friends, also as they work in my company they can give me a good steer as to what is considered reasonable or not.

Am feeling massively uplifted by this thread - it's a great example of MN at it's best. Thankyou to those who have given me constructive advice, it's given me the power to stand up for myself.

@rookiemere I have a very generous redundancy package - would bite their hand off for it right now.

I work remotely though and seem to have lost some of the work friends and allies I had - my DH is a good sounding block.

No. I did not say that. I am saying if someone is doing that they should be rewarded for that. Promotion, higher salary, bonus etc.

I didn't miss it, if you re-read my post. 'At times' does not equate to a daily or weekly occurrence however, and depending on what is being asked, even monthly may be unreasonable. In all cases, it shouldn't be expected as a freebie from the employee.

Band 7 nhs AHP and my pay for a 4 day week is £36,800. Very stressful highly specialised work that often requires me to work over and above my contacted hours which I can the take back as time owning.
l think you ABU on £52,000 not to show willing and accept that sometimes you can’t just stick to what your contract says and show a bit of flexibility,

Perhaps by only getting 2.5 days of work done during this away week will make management realise how it’s impossible to do your job effectively within the hours you work and the salary you’re being paid. They’re taking the piss, and you need to keep reminding them of that.

arrange a meeting. Go through your job description and pay grade as well as your hours and tell them this won’t work.

you seem stressed and no job is worth feeling like this. Xx

Erm there's not a hope in hell I'd get away with saying I'm not going on an away day. It's only a day - is it that big of a deal? Mine are normally a 3-4 days long, take place several times a year, in an obscure location and a logistical nightmare on the home front (only woman with kids in team).

If you can get away with it without consequence then fair play but if I did it then it would definitely be factored in to my annual review/bonus. And presumably your contract says something about reasonable additional hours?

In your shoes, I'd start taking sick days to deal with the insomnia, and I'd insist on them taking menopause issues seriously. They'll soon be mad keen to offer you redundancy.

Do you get travel expenses? If I did then would be happy to do it. Senior roles do require travel and the days I didn't have young DC and childcare to pay for no problem. Sounds like in your 50s, like me, you're fed up with all the extra stuff, that's why I left my stressful more highly paid permanent role as my DC is only still young and has SEN so couldn't and didn't want to keep up the intensity. Found another job, more flexible, lesser paid, but life changer! Meanwhile my DH maintains his full time career which involves travel every week, sometimes away for a few days, all fine as I can fit in around this.

So depends on your personal situation, needing the money your job pays or stepping down, less doing things you don't want to, or of course stepping up to consultancy. Xx

Yeah of course I get expenses. But a free train and lunch doesn't really excite me vs a 5am start and a 14 hour day. But hey ho, I'm going now.

You should be paid for any extra hours on top of your usual commute or at least given that time back. Work is work and legally you should be paid for work you do.

I think some people are still in the mindset that it’s “part of the job” or “expected” but it shouldn’t be. You have contracted hours and pay for a reason.

Once you hit annual salary of certain grade it will always say expected to work extra hours.