DH policing how I talk. AIBu

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So I was just chatting to DH about something we have paid someone else to do for us. At great expense. For example a menu for a big event.

We are going through a rocky patch. He is getting therapy to work out why he gets so triggered by certain things which can lead to him getting disproportionally angry and at times very verbally aggressive (name calling for example).

Discussion yesterday and an agreement that neither of us should give the other unsolicited advice or criticise each other. He has asked me to make a reasonable change in how we co parent and I have asked him to continue to work on being less reactive and angry.

So back to the conversation about the ‘menu’.

We were talking through it and the different aspects - what we liked and didn’t like. I said about one bit ‘I feel really ‘meh’ about this bit’. He said - in a slightly irritated tone ‘can I ask that when we discuss these things that you talk more positively.’

i stayed very calm. I’m getting very skilled at that! I said that I was just expressing how I feel about something. He said that I had asked him to change how he talks (I.e. when he’s angry and aggressive) because of how it makes me feel and so he is asking me to change how I talk because it dampens his enthusiasm for the ‘menu’

I very calmly said that I didn’t think it was equivalent and that I need to be able to express myself and my feelings and thoughts. I wasnt being critical of him or aggressive or morose. I was positive about the bulk of the ‘menu’. I was just stating my reaction to a part of the menu.

He was annoyed that I didn’t agree with him and huffed and walked off.

AIBU to think that he doesn’t have the right to ask me not to express my emotional reaction to a part of something that we are paying someone to provide.

Or am I right to stand my ground because I shouldn’t have to monitor what I say just in case it dampens his enthusiasm (it might have easily been that he felt ‘meh’ as well).?

No LTBs please. That’s the next step if he doesn’t stop the aggressive outbursts. Obviously this is a micro event in a much more complex situation but just based on the information here I’d be keen to hear views.

Thanks in advance to anyone that has read and comprehended all of that. I feel quite certain that I am being reasonable but the strength of his annoyance makes it hard to know for sure. Would be great to have different perspectives.

Neither of you can be yourselves in this relationship and working at keeping up a facade is eventually going to end in massive resentment and probably boil over into one of you murdering the other.

It's never going to work.

You are reasonable. He isn’t. Sound exhausting, controlling and abusive. I wouldn’t want to do anything with him.

I'm not sure to be honest, it sounds like he wasn't telling you not to give your opinion, he was asking you to word it differently. So instead of saying you don't like that bit, you could have suggested a way to make it better.
I don't think this would come out of a single comment though, he probably feels like you are generally being negative about the all thing which can be a bit frustrating in the long run.

But I agree with others that nothing should be this hard...

He's distorting what was requested of him (or both of you) in the therapy session.

This might be a genuine error on his part - maybe he's misunderstood the direction?

However, it could be that he's got what I call 'slippery thinking' and is out to use every opportunity to put you down, gain oneupmanship, and put himself in the victim stance. Possibly as retaliation 'look, you're as bad as me'.

However, let's be clear. Stating you don't feel interested in a menu is not the same as losing your temper and being verbally abusive or frightening to others because you feel 'triggered'. Also, you weren't (I assume) being intentionally disparaging in order to push buttons - some people do that as a form of emotional abuse.

I find it hard to be with people who are persistently disparaging as I realise it's a game and it's one where they're constantly trying to keep me on the back foot. If you are being persistently disparaging as a way of gaining agency over a difficult man, then think about that, but it doesn't sound like it to me. Also, is he doing that to you?

This gives you something to work through in your next therapy session as you can explain this incident to the therapist and discuss as a group - they'll be glad of the 'meat' to work with.

I worry from what you've written that perhaps he doesn't have the intelligence or capacity or humility to take on board criticism and make change. Also you're not his parent or caregiver, you're supposed to be his equal and partner, think about that. As people have said above, life isn't meant to be THIS hard and I agree.

Can I recommend you some really great books - a bit old fashioned now but on the subject of Transactional Analysis - 'I'm OK, You're OK' Thomas and Amy Harris, and TA Today, Ian Stewart, Vann Jones. It's about how we interact and what that triggers in the other. I think you'd get a lot out of them - or maybe there's more modern stuff like youtube videos explaining the theories.

LOL say it how it is! hehe made me laugh but also pretty sinister.

If anyone's going to murder anyone, I'd like to point out that statistically speaking it's the male who kills the female so for the sake of accuracy, if we're to believe a person could die then it would be the OP herself.

Kids pick up on it. I WISH my parents had split earlier, and it was a fucking massive relief, even at 8 years old, when they did. They were far better apart and never together again than they were forcing a marriage that was flogging a dead horse.

Thanks for that carefully thought out reply.

No. I’m not overly negative or disparaging. Wed talked about what was good. I’d mentioned lots that worked well but I had a strong ‘meh’ reaction to one bit. I was just genuinely and lightly expressing my feeling. I wasn’t even being particularly moany. It was a light conversation.

TA has some helpful things. I’ve talked about it with him. I really try hard to stay in adult mode. He isn’t great at it and is either parent (critical) or child (victim of everyone).

He has the intelligence and the motivation. Humility and insight are harder. Very fragile ego. Very easily becomes defensive over very small things. Even an offer of help - e.g me - ‘you’ve been in the go constantly for a few days, why don’t you leave that and I’ll do it later?’ He got all ‘No! I’ve said I’ll do certain tasks and I intend to do them!!’ - like I’d questioned his ability.

He is working on it

Your husband is making a false comparison between his inappropriate behaviour, raised voice, name calling etc when he is 'negative' and you expressing negativity about anything, in an attempt to show you're 'as bad as each other'.
In the highly unlikely event he doesn't understand the difference (unless he's very stupid, he does, and is doing this deliberately) you need to explain.
"DH, its completely unrealistic for either of us to be positive about everything. Negativity about something isn't the problem. It's how we express it that matters. I was calm and polite and wasn't attacking you personally, so there is no comparison to how you behave"

Me too but there were very few moments of joy and DV for me. I was shouted at, critics and hit, so I am clear that it’s so so so much different for my DC.

Can I ask what it was you were relieved about please? You don’t have to go into detail but was just verbal arguments or worse? Was it constant or sporadic? If you don’t want to share that’s fine 😊

Or... those of us who are free are assisting to liberate the still suffering.

My story - I'm not someone who just broke up from a bad relationship but 25 years ago I did realise that there was something very very wrong - I kept getting in relationships with men who were abusive and violent, sort of macho gangster types. I also didn't want to have sex with them in all honesty. Took a long time and a lot of recovery to realise that I was just quite literally repeating the format of what I'd be brought up in. I also never 'fancied' boys or men as a youngster. That's how bad it was! I'm gay / lesbian. I'm not even bi. But because of dysfunction I was dating violent men. That's how programmed and oblivious I was. It's taken me decades to de-code all this and de-programme myself. Not saying anyone else's story is THAT extreme but life is for living joyfully, not imprisoning and hostage taking one another and using therapists to beat each other into submission.

Hi OP

I think you might benefit from thinking through the situation you are in.

Clearly he is unreasonable. If he is in therapy he might change. However it might give him more tools to be more unreasonable.

You've said that if it wasn't for the DC you would have left already.

Couple of suggestions:in terms of coping until the deadline, treat him like a dangerous tiger who you have no choice but to be around.

Try to get some space of your own in the house or the garden and spend time there or out if the house.
If you have to interact with him, be very calm and try not to provoke at all. You will know what triggers him. You know he's not reasonable so don't bother to treat him like he will be.

Longer term, if as you say he is verbally and emotionally abusive this will be impacting the children. So consider what you can do to support their needs - keeping them away from shouting and arguments and so on by being out etc.

I'm sorry. It's a shit situation.

Sadly I have the same wonderings. I asked him to leave on three occasions when he was as really aggressive and both times he refused and said he’d never leave DC. He was doing less than 50% he’s now doing loads more. That’s a good idea. I just am so exhausted. My marriage is one of 7 difficult and emotionally draining things at the moment.

This is good to hear - it didn't sound to me that you were being deliberately disparaging.

It's great that you know all about TA. Interesting that you offering help (parent) triggers his reactive defensive wounded child. This is the sort of stuff that is so hard to change if someone has profound trauma. Indeed ego defences too.

Have you ever heard of the 12 Step Prog 'Adult Children of Alcoholics or Dysfunctional Parents' ('ACoA' or 'ACA')? It could help him IMO. For those of us who were brought up with invalidating, wounding, terrifying, inconsistent, and downright deathly parents, it's hardly surprising when we get easily triggered and fearful then lose agency over our rational higher self. However, it is still not your job to hand hold someone through their recovery (that would make you codependent as opposed to a loving partner) but it sounds like he's willing to enter into recovery which is a very personal and private journey and also incredibly painful.

Don't let him put you on the back foot in all this, that's just him acting out, you're going to have to stay very strong and hold your own boundaries with not any self-doubt, easier said than done as the none of us are perfect and we aren't robots.

I can't tell who is bu but I can tell that you don't sound very compatible.

Thank you. We are both really committed parents so we manage pretty well when they are around.

The tiger analogy is a good one and that’s how it feels.

But to be honest, when he’s not triggered into hostility, he’s a decent bloke. We laugh together, have fun as a family, we share very similar values, he knows his behaviour is not OK (although if feeling shame that goes) and he’s such a dedicated dad. He would never cheat on me. When we are intimate it’s good. I’m not feeling it at the moment though!! No physical intimacy until I feel psychologically safe again. If ever.

Good survival strategies until long lasting change or separation. Thank you.

If you have asked him to leave in three occasions and he is now doing more care of the DC it sounds like he is expecting a divorce soon and getting his ducks in a row so he gets the outcome he wants.

I'd tread very carefully if I was you.

In most ways we are. Similar interests, values, politics, sense of humour etc. it’s just his being triggered into disproportionate anger that needs to change. And some parenting stuff (I am a bit liaises faire with boundaries) for us both.

Wise wise words. Thank you.

I hadn’t heard of that programme but will check it out. Sounds like it could be really helpful. Thanks so much.

For those of us who have had to work a personal recovery journey from being raised in a dysfunctional and painful childhood, I can tell you one thing for a fact:

There is no person who is capable of being functional and safe in a relationship until they have done their personal recovery work.

I'm female and I was never terrifying or abusive to anyone, I had my own set of batshit crazy issues, but the 'blueprint' is set until it's worked through and broken.

It takes Honesty, Openness, and Willingness (HOW) and there is not a damn thing any other living being can do to help except leave us in space to do the work, don't enable the sickness, and be totally honest.

It's not easy to be totally honest with an aggressive egotistical man who is teetering between the humility of understanding where they're going wrong and then swinging defensively into aggressive egotistical defences - there in lies the danger- the pendulum is now swinging. It's like poking a bear or living with a caged tiger. Caged tiger might bumble around the house being generally scary and roar now and then and look like it's going to bite -but- you start deliberately prodding it and it's probably going to rip your head off one of these fine days.

This

Wise words.

I never ‘deliberately prod’ but I can easily accidentally prod. I’m treading on egg shells. But all I can ask is that he tries and he is.

We are not in therapy. He is. I see a counsellor to keep my head straight. I think he genuinely doesn’t realise how aggressive he gets. He’s is starting to though and is facing some very painful things.

AND I can’t continue to live like this so I’m ready to leave if I have to but that comes at a huge emotional and financial cost to me. I will be utterly devastated to not see the DC every day.

So he’s offended that you’ve asked him to stop acting like a tired 2 year old being aggressive and awful and now he is nitpicking at you, then stomping off?

He sounds pathetic.

have you ever spoken to a solicitor, GP, Police or WA about his behaviour? If not, please do and get it logged somwhere.

I agree she doesn't have to LTB now or ever but she has made certain statements that make it very difficult to help her.

Describing a man who isn't working on changing himself to make the marriage better, but is getting more abusive in a different way.
Refusing to leave.
Says he is/has been disproportionately angry.
And finally - There is a hell of a lot more I’d tolerate to be honest, as long as it didn’t effect them (children).

She is trying to twist herself into something that isn't achievable unless she has been truly broken in spirit, and more importantly she is asking us to help him abuse her, which is very worrying. Even the professional therapists cannot rehabilitate an abusive man. That is what she needs to understand. That is her starting point from this mess.