Page 3 | School debate about fertile women being employed

reallyconfusedmostofthetime · 2023-12-01T19:52:57+00:00

My child's tutor (YR8) started a class debate about whether women of child bearing age should be employed. Is it unreasonable to think this is sexist and ridiculous?

SiennaMillar · 01/12/2023 20:52

@MrsTerryPratchett exactly. Women’s rights are, by this lesson, up for debate. Disgraceful

Catsmere · 01/12/2023 20:52

desperatemum24 · 01/12/2023 20:06

I disagree , women continuously have to fight for equality and still haven't achieved it . Discussions about women's right to work where presumably justification for losing that right would be discussed should not be happening in a school setting.

Yes, it's literally a "not up for debate" topic - or should be.

Rumplestiltz · 01/12/2023 20:52

Pussygaloregalapagos · 01/12/2023 20:24

One of my philosophy lessons began with ‘Should infanticide be legal?’

Quite controversial but obviously it was to ignite a debate about abortion and length of the pregnancy etc etc

It was fascinating and I still remember how thought provoking it was.

Meant to quote this!

RosaGallica · 01/12/2023 20:53

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 20:52

You could ask when these ‘worthwhile’ controversial topics about restricting women’s rights are going to be joined by one about having a curfew on men’s movements even just once a year, since men cause most violence. Or should football be shut down for similar reasons.

Why would you presume such discussions are NOT taking place? What would we think the only debates taking place are about the restriction of women's rights? 🤨

Because: 1) that’s what the op was about; 2) somehow restricting male rights never does come up for debate. It’s always about whether women should be viewed as full humans or service humans.

donquixotedelamancha · 01/12/2023 20:55

iffyi · 01/12/2023 20:01

Absolutely not unreasonable! I’d be making a complaint to the school- what kind of message is that?

I'm not going to bother answering the OP's question except to say that the people saying to make a complaint should be ashamed.

What I find interesting is why people think someone on maternity leave would harm a business. Do these people think the business pays two salaries?

museumum · 01/12/2023 20:55

I think it’s a good topic because although it should be a “no brainer” and it’s illegal to act otherwise, it’s a topic and attitude still believed and acted upon in wider society and so it’s good to hone the arguments as they will actually be needed (unfortunately).

CarolinaInTheMorning · 01/12/2023 20:55

starsinthenightskies · 01/12/2023 20:05

I understand the intention behind picking a controversial topic but personally I think this goes too far. The answer should be a complete no brainer and starting a debate on it gives the impression that it’s not and that there really are reasonable arguments against women working.

This.

TheMoth · 01/12/2023 20:55

Rocksonabeach · 01/12/2023 20:22

Actually I did exactly this with a year 11 tutor group last year - looking at employment. They had ten anonymous CVs and ranked them in order - then they were given a name and asked to rank them again - some changed their order.
Then I gave them photos and they ranked them again - again they changed order. Then I told them which university they had their degree from eg Bristol university or a top university in Japan. Then I gave them ‘confidential information’ on each candidate eg Sam is suffering with anxiety and sees the GP regularly. Attendance is good but they are on anti depressants.
Julie is 7 months pregnant.
Eric is a carer for his disabled mother and lives with her but she doesn’t like to be left all day and rings him at work and he is reluctant to stay after work hours on any day.

again they ranked them and selected 5 to interview and marked their top 3 in order.

Julie wasn’t selected by any despite her great reference and relevant work experience and degree. All pupils rejected her on the ground she was pregnant and they didn’t want to train her and then have her off on maternity leave. Same for anyone with anxiety or a carer.

in fact that picked 3 white males for top 3 despite their qualification and experience being lower etc

and we discussed employment law and discrimination.

I found it shocking that they didn’t think that automatically blocking Julie as she was pregnant was discrimination and they wrote off women with young children, single parents, carers etc

they were shocked about the law! It just seemed natural to them. I wonder how many of us if we had two good candidates and one was pregnant just automatically give the other one a head start before they even open their mouths.

It’s only fairly recently that it was introduced that you couldn’t ask a woman about her fertility plans. I remember being asked in my 20s if I had a boyfriend or wanted children - wasn’t that long ago and it still goes on!

I did this with a yr 7 group a few years ago! They were all really careful about not being biased against anyone of different ethnicity or sexuality. They were iffy about the wheelchair user and downright biased against the pregnant woman, 'in case she fainted'. As a mother of 2 who didn't have a single day of during pregnancy and hardly any when I was back at work after dc, I found that both amusing and sad. And interesting that sexism is still permissible.

AndWordsWhen · 01/12/2023 20:55

Anything you put up for debate implies there is a debate worth having. Some concepts are so old, so well understood that they are no longer thought provoking.

VivaVivaa · 01/12/2023 20:56

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/12/2023 20:51

It suggests women's rights are up for debate. If they wouldn't post the question the other way around (which would actually be interesting and say something) they shouldn't use it this way around.

Same with abortion rights. Shouldn't be a debate. When you think about 'controversial' questions about other groups it becomes very plain.

Bump. Perfectly put.

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 20:56

Because: 1) that’s what the op was about; 2) somehow restricting male rights never does come up for debate. It’s always about whether women should be viewed as full humans or service humans

no, the OP didn't say that this is the ONLY thing debated.
not the case in my classroom, or in my debating club... saying it 'never' comes up for debate is a massive and ridiculous claim, as I'm evidence of it being otherwise 🤷‍♀️

Ofa · 01/12/2023 20:56

starsinthenightskies · 01/12/2023 20:05

I understand the intention behind picking a controversial topic but personally I think this goes too far. The answer should be a complete no brainer and starting a debate on it gives the impression that it’s not and that there really are reasonable arguments against women working.

This. Some issues are debstwble, others are not. Given the huge rise in violence against women, incel ideology, Andrew Tate etc etc it is inappropriate for a school to be offering this as a debatable issue. They wouldn’t debate black rights or gay rights. Just women’s rights. 🤬

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 20:57

They wouldn’t debate black rights or gay rights. Just women’s rights. 🤬

Again, not true. My debating club has debated all sorts of controversial topics.

RosaGallica · 01/12/2023 20:57

And @surreygirl1987 : 3) Asking exactly that checks whether the aim is to be controversially thought provoking, or merely unthinkingly sexist.

flyingbuttress43 · 01/12/2023 20:57

I am astounded that this is even a topic for debate in 2023. It was the sort of debate that raged when I started my career, and that was in the 1960s. I feel that women's rights are moving backwards in several ways.

ActDottie · 01/12/2023 20:58

I get it’s supposed to be controversial but a good debate should have valid points each side.

I’m not really sure what the valid points would be in favour of fertile women being unemployed, apart from sexist points.

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 20:59

3) Asking exactly that checks whether the aim is to be controversially thought provoking, or merely unthinkingly sexist.

Yes, that's fair. But I wouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that he's being 'unthinkingly sexist' when the debate of controversial topics is such a common and effective teaching method 💁‍♀️

LivingNextDoorToNorma · 01/12/2023 21:00

FreshFromTheSinBin · 01/12/2023 20:38

My dad always said the same. He said it was a complete pita and cost the business a fortune to employ women of child-bearing age because they would invariably go off and have children. He couldn't afford to employ them.

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I think these replies demonstrate why it is a valid and important topic for debate. We can all agree that it’s a no-brainier and shouldn’t be a debate etc, but this is the reality that many women face. By starting these discussions while kids are young, we can hopefully influence a change in attitudes going forwards.

DaisyDoor · 01/12/2023 21:00

It’s completely inappropriate. Picking a subject for debate is not a neutral act.

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/12/2023 21:00

ActDottie · 01/12/2023 20:58

I get it’s supposed to be controversial but a good debate should have valid points each side.

I’m not really sure what the valid points would be in favour of fertile women being unemployed, apart from sexist points.

This. It's shit because it's one-sided. As well as wildly misogynistic. Probably someone who thinks they are soooooo PoMo and controversial.

MarryingMrDarcy · 01/12/2023 21:00

Crepesuzetteforone · 01/12/2023 20:28

This!

I’m all for not censoring and allowing freedom of expression, but to me, this is as bad as saying something like ‘white people are superior. Discuss’

It’s a debate where just saying ‘that’s bullshit’ is the only rational response from the people trying to argue against it.

there are plenty of controversial topics where one side can’t be dismissed easily, which is far more suitable for debate.

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Agreed. All the people on this thread saying what a great debate this would provoke perhaps don’t understand the damage that can be caused when a fringe view is presented as worthy of consideration, e.g. all the media ‘debate’ where a rabid climate change denier in the extreme minority (scientifically speaking) is presented to be on a par with the scientific consensus around global warming and they have a head-to-head debate like there’s 2 basically evenly weighted sides. It’s false balance, and it’s dangerous.

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 21:01

I think these replies demonstrate why it is a valid and important topic for debate. We can all agree that it’s a no-brainier and shouldn’t be a debate etc, but this is the reality that many women face. By starting these discussions while kids are young, we can hopefully influence a change in attitudes going forwards.

Exactly this!

ntmdino · 01/12/2023 21:01

Ofa · 01/12/2023 20:56

This. Some issues are debstwble, others are not. Given the huge rise in violence against women, incel ideology, Andrew Tate etc etc it is inappropriate for a school to be offering this as a debatable issue. They wouldn’t debate black rights or gay rights. Just women’s rights. 🤬

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It's interesting that you bring up Andrew Tate.

When you teach kids from a very young age that there are some questions they're not even allowed to ask or talk about, somebody like him will come along and invite them to the discussion in order to take advantage of them.

It's sad that so many don't seem to be learning that lesson.

Draoicht · 01/12/2023 21:01

Haggisfish3 · 01/12/2023 20:01

This is exactly the sort of thing. That provokes brilliant discussion in schools and is the sort of thing I would include as a tutor.

I really fear for education. This isn’t a “topic for debate”, unless ‘Should women be taught to read?’ is also a topic for debate.

surreygirl1987 · 01/12/2023 21:02

When you teach kids from a very young age that there are some questions they're not even allowed to ask or talk about, somebody like him will come along and invite them to the discussion in order to take advantage of them