School debate about fertile women being employed

[reallyconfusedmostofthetime]

My child's tutor (YR8) started a class debate about whether women of child bearing age should be employed. Is it unreasonable to think this is sexist and ridiculous?

I am not saying we would not employ women, because we would. Only that there aren't any to employ, who are qualified. Qualified is essential for our certification. The minimum entry level.

I think my feelings about this topic might depend on whether the class was boys and girls, or girls only (and probably with a female teacher). If only girls were present, it might give them the opportunity to work through some misogynist tropes and discuss together how to combat them. If it was a mixed-sex class, though, I'd be more uncomfortable about the dynamics of girls potentially having to defend women's rights against boys who end up on the opposing side (and also about some of the girls having to act out the 'don't employ women' arguments with boys there too).

In exactly the same way, as a white educator I would never ask Black students to debate or defend racial justice issues in a multi-racial classroom. It wouldn't be fair at all.

How would anyone ever learn anything if they never actually thought about it?? And sadly - that's where we are heading. People who are so worried about not "thinking the right thing" never actually think at all!

Racism harms men, while sexism benefits them. That's why the former is taken seriously and the latter dismissed as unimportant, nonexistent, or the way things should be.

Agreed. I worked in a team of about 8 for an NHS department were we recruited locums, SHOs and doctors for various roles within various specialities in out Trust. I saw first hand how not only in our department did we get fucked over when a woman left for maternity leave (they couldn't hire anyone else so the leavers roles and workloads were then farmed out to the rest of us to take over, often at substantial amounts of extra time having to work and increased stress loads, but at zero extra pay), but the placements themselves were royally screwed when a doctor went on maternity as they simply couldn;t afford the additional recruitment etc for a replacement. No hate from me, just fact. It was extremely stressfull.

😂

You know that an enormous number of women with children, and of childbearing age, are employed by small businesses right?.. or do you live under a rock?

Be great if they could debate "should men be allowed in positions of power?"

Were none of you ever in the school debating society? I think we had some odd questions. The point is that you learn how to debate, construct an argument etc. So they can learn those skills from this question as well as have plenty of opportunities for the teacher to describe how 'sexism=bad, m'kay?'

Agreed. It would be racist to say that this was even up for debate; it would be outrageous in a school context. This situation is very similar. How exactly do you ‘debate’ a premise which is fundamentally misogynistic?

Debates should not be sexist. Sexism and discrimination is not debatable is it! Women’s rights are non negotiable and protected by law. By your logic it’d also be ok to have a racist debate too like say “should people of a certain ethnicity be considered for employment?”

I remember a debate topic at university (I realise, much different than year 8) about whether people should need to have a licence to have children.

This was a really interesting exercise because I started out thinking yeah of course, raising children is really important and it would prevent child abuse so why on earth not?? And by the end I had thought about

Would it actually prevent child abuse?
How does child abuse even happen? Is it predictable?
What happens about unplanned pregnancies? What effect would that have on people?
What happens to children who are born into this situation? How does that affect the children?
Who gets to decide what a "good parent" is? Why? How do they quantify that?
What happens if someone seems to be a good parent and then turns out not to be?

It was a fantastic episode in questioning my automatic assumptions and I think about that example a lot.

So I think controversial subjects should be debated, absolutely.

Mind you in year 8 I remember reading a book which involved an anecdote about animal testing and my 12 year old black and white thinking made me concoct an elaborate plan to eliminate animal testing by testing cosmetics and medicines on human prisoners instead because "at least they are guilty" errr yes... maybe not Maybe year 8s should stick to more neutral topics.

Maybe the school could even it up next week with something like this : Men ages 18-65 cause a lot of issues. Should we get rid of them? Discuss.

Yep imagine too “given the high rates of violent attacks on women should men be given a curfew at night?”

For those who think it's a reasonable topic for a year 8 debate because it encourages children to think, do you also believe that the following topic would be reasonable:

"Due to the tribal nature of human beings, we must accept that some degree of racism is inevitable in society."

Yes, they can also do 'should men be imprisoned from the time they reach adulthood, since it would prevent them from commiting the crimes they are almost exclusively responsible for'?, 'should we bother keeping elderly people alive once they stop contributing to society, or just leave them on the ground when they fall over?', 'would it be OK for a mother to smother her baby if it's crying mildly upsets her?', oh no wait, we can't, because those groups have very basic rights which aren't worth debating.

I studied philosophy at university, so yes, I spent 3 years of my life learning to argue effectively. The question being posed is flawed, fundamentally. And it is genuinely worrying that a class of Y8 kids are being encouraged to ‘debate’ a question which asks them to consider if women deserve human rights.

The point of an exercise like that is that some people will think there is legitimacy to the argument, it's a good opportunity to directly address any specific prejudices and thoughts and "logical" beliefs, without outright starting out with the premise "This is why I'm right; listen:" which will instantly turn most people off.

You start out with the premise "We're just having a discussion; maybe I'm right, maybe you're right" but by the end you end up with the more persuasive arguments, you have much more chance to change a mind.

Ha! ‘Basically all wars ever have been started by men. Isn’t it time we stopped putting them in positions of power?’

Ooh I’d definitely want to watch this debate! It would be highly entertaining, the points they could come up with and the emotions that will be flying… what a great topic actually, it may show them sexism and how women used to be treated!

Exactly. I’m astounded that there are people on this thread not getting this and keep repeating “ but it’s how debate works!” It’s not. Not everything is debatable, such as women’s rights.

I think it’s an important topic for debate, but not necessarily a suitable topic for school kids to debate.

Debating subjects where there may be a result that suggests people who are present should not have the rights they currently do is a risky proposition. It will harm those people to hear that from their peers. And as minors who do not get to choose to be there, the school has a duty to safeguard them from that harm.

The school also has a duty under equality act legislation to promote cooperation and good feeling amoung groups of people with protected characteristics. Which a debate like this stands a reasonable chance of failing to do.

Debating women’s rights, LGBTQ+ rights, religion, immigration, etc. in school needs very careful consideration and very talented leadership (and while I have a lot of admiration for a lot of teachers, they aren’t all up to this task).

I studied philosophy at university, so yes, I spent 3 years of my life learning to argue effectively. The question being posed is flawed, fundamentally. And it is genuinely worrying that a class of Y8 kids are being encouraged to ‘debate’ a question which asks them to consider if women deserve human rights.

I'm sure if @reallyconfusedmostofthetime spoke to the teacher they would be happy to explain what they were upto .:)

It is 'flawed' and that gives the teacher an opportunity to teach about the issues.

It’s a great debate, this will give opposing arguments which will hopefully show a thought provoking discussion. Agree they could turn it on its head and use men as the subject but I still think this would be very interesting.

That's an unacceptable topic for school debate IMO as it simply reinforces widely-held sexist beliefs.