To ask about being fired from public sector

[Bringbackspring]

This may be very unreasonable to ask, and there isn't much point to it as nothing will come from this. But AIBU to ask if anyone on here has ever known someone lose their job in the higher education (HE) sector? I'm not talking about a fixed term or casual appointment coming to it's natural end and it not being renewed. I'm talking about staff from any of the HE 'job families' (not just lecturing, there are 100's of job types in HE) being given the boot either mid-contract or from a permanent contract.

I have worked in several UK universities over the past 20 years. I have worked with mostly brilliant people who really go above and beyond, and lots of good people who just get on and do their job to the letter. All fine. I love the work and it makes it easy to get about of bed for as it's work that helps a lot of people.

However, I have worked with a handful of absolute waste of space coasters. People who are incompetent (despite being given training, and endless amounts of support), people who are lazy and will seemingly sit back and just let everyone else pick up the slack because everyone else is too conscientious to just let it all fall apart. One person could not follow even the most basic health and safety protocols (think spilling toxic chemicals regularly and just wandering off to let someone else find and sort it) and was generally a walking hazard!

Not once have I ever seen a case of one of these people losing their job. Only once have I seen a line manager escalate someone to HR (following procedure) and the senior dept. leaders turned on the line manager. The useless employee was protected, and apologised to, and the line manager ended up handing her notice in. So we ended up losing a brilliant member of staff in order to keep a useless one.

I am getting a bit fed up of everyone, including very senior people, being very well aware of these people's short comings, and the impact it has on the teams who work with them. But nothing is ever done about it. It's like HE is terrified of firing people because it's not a very 'wellbeing' sort of thing to do. What about the wellbeing of everyone else!!

In the private sector, I get the impression that coasters wouldn't last long. But maybe I am wrong?

I fired someone in the civil service, this person had been performing badly for years but was just moved from team to team. From PIP through to employment tribunal it was an 18th month unending nightmare. HR were utterly clueless and gave us so much wrong advice about process it caused huge problems. She raised a grievance against everyone she could and I spent weeks either being investigated or contributing to other people’s investigations. The investigator told us she was keen to deliver a ‘balanced’ report which meant setting out faults on both sides, so everyone trying their best on this crappy situation had their character called into question.

the employment tribunal, after months of prep, backed our decision. I’m never bothering again. It’s not worth the mental toll.

I knew someone who got fired during his probation for cancelling 9am lectures regularly when he couldn't be bothered to get up. Punching people, smoking in the lab (in 2010!), leaving bottles of hydrofluoric acid under your desk, refusing to work with women and being drunk at 11am every day weren't enough to get rid of various professors over the years. I did see a few quiet underperformers being given all the student support admin roles until they quit in despair though, and a lot of people being made redundant in reshuffles. Normally the ones who taught the vital introductory 1st year courses and actually knew what the machines in the lab did...

I remember being quite shocked when my sister told me she'd sacked someone recently. And it wasn't the first person she'd sacked. She has been a manager of a branch of medium size private sector business for just over a year. Staff get 6 months probation, and if they are unreliable in that time, useless, or take the piss, she ends their employment. She does give a few chances to improve, and tries to accommodate their personal circumstances. She'll generally bend over backwards for her team. But if after all that, they are still terrible, she just gives them notice and they're gone. And that's the end of that. There is a huge safety element to her job so there's no room for people who dont give a toss. Made me think that my sector is a bit mad because in HE never would there be such simplicity.

I had a lecturer at University who was absolutely pitiful and devious... he took credit for a colleague's research and passed it off as his own (and got away with it!).

30 years later, I've drove my DS to an open day at my old Uni. I get talking to someone who turns out is responsible for planning the open day. I congratulate him and we talk some more. It turns out he's a senior lecturer in my old discipline, slightly after my time. We start to go through some names of lecturers who were around when I was an undergraduate. I eventually name this problematic lecturer, the person I'm speaking to goes visibly pale. We then have a cathartic 30 minutes while he unloads all the dreadful things this lecturer went on to do during the remainder of his career. Turns out the lecturer had only just retired. We both can't believe how he ever lasted.

Part of the problem is that (unwise) managers in the public sector prioritise years of experience over qualities, attitude, strengths or leadership potential which is why people often get promoted above their capabilities - in my experience the biggest problem people are in roles that are 1- 2 pay grades above where they should be.

It is also why terrible people just churn around the system getting job after job despite being useless.

I have to say I agree. Being good at your particular specialism doesn't guarantee that you'll also be a good people manager.

Combine that with a lack of training and support from higher management and you have a recipe for disaster.

Personally I'd like to see managers receive thorough training and coaching once they get promoted into a line management role but that's a whole other argument.

I actually did get this, in my area. I had a coach / mentor for 9 months, lots of training.

I'd also managed people in other roles & sectors across my career so was rea
Actually,

Oops...

Was reasonably experienced

What I really needed was more guidance on the whole disciplinary & sanction process, and how to continue to manage a team when one or more members were going through such a process.

The unreasonable part is being expected to deal with all of this without support.

I'm pleased you got training and mentoring. It's certainly more than our managers get.

I'm not sure why your HR team couldn't have supported you to understand the processes. We'd expect the manager to have read the relevant policies but we'd then talk through the nitty gritty and assign a caseworker.

To paraphrase the old saying, 95% of people come to work and don't cause any problems. 5% cause chaos and you'll spend 95% of your time trying to deal with that 5%.

We'd expect the manager to have read the relevant policies but we'd then talk through the nitty gritty and assign a caseworker.

No, none of this. I'd say largely due to lack of staff. The process is effectively overseen by a senior HR person who will liaise with my senior manager - still not much help to me in the middle doing the donkey work!

We had an excellent person with sole responsibility for employee matters, complaints, disciplinary etc - he was very helpful but left. He'd both explain the process but also give practical advice about dos and don'ts as the process was ongoing.

To paraphrase the old saying, 95% of people come to work and don't cause any problems. 5% cause chaos and you'll spend 95% of your time trying to deal with that 5%.

You are spot on!

That's a shame. I suppose it depends on the make up of your HR team. We're big enough that we have a specialist ER team, of which I am one, so it's our entire job to support with things like this.