To ask about being fired from public sector

[Bringbackspring]

This may be very unreasonable to ask, and there isn't much point to it as nothing will come from this. But AIBU to ask if anyone on here has ever known someone lose their job in the higher education (HE) sector? I'm not talking about a fixed term or casual appointment coming to it's natural end and it not being renewed. I'm talking about staff from any of the HE 'job families' (not just lecturing, there are 100's of job types in HE) being given the boot either mid-contract or from a permanent contract.

I have worked in several UK universities over the past 20 years. I have worked with mostly brilliant people who really go above and beyond, and lots of good people who just get on and do their job to the letter. All fine. I love the work and it makes it easy to get about of bed for as it's work that helps a lot of people.

However, I have worked with a handful of absolute waste of space coasters. People who are incompetent (despite being given training, and endless amounts of support), people who are lazy and will seemingly sit back and just let everyone else pick up the slack because everyone else is too conscientious to just let it all fall apart. One person could not follow even the most basic health and safety protocols (think spilling toxic chemicals regularly and just wandering off to let someone else find and sort it) and was generally a walking hazard!

Not once have I ever seen a case of one of these people losing their job. Only once have I seen a line manager escalate someone to HR (following procedure) and the senior dept. leaders turned on the line manager. The useless employee was protected, and apologised to, and the line manager ended up handing her notice in. So we ended up losing a brilliant member of staff in order to keep a useless one.

I am getting a bit fed up of everyone, including very senior people, being very well aware of these people's short comings, and the impact it has on the teams who work with them. But nothing is ever done about it. It's like HE is terrified of firing people because it's not a very 'wellbeing' sort of thing to do. What about the wellbeing of everyone else!!

In the private sector, I get the impression that coasters wouldn't last long. But maybe I am wrong?

So you don't work there but you know all about it? Hmm.

It's impossible. The things I saw at Network Rail.

One - for violence, and even that took about three years to draw to a conclusion

I've worked in HE for a long, long time. To get sacked you basically need to murder one of your colleagues and even then, depending on how popular your victim was, you might only get shuffled to a different department...

Genuine answer - in my 20 years of managing staff in HE support roles, I've sacked two people. In both cases, there were incidents of gross misconduct, one involving fraud and one involving violence. Both times, it was a long process between initial suspension and eventual sacking.

As you say, it's very difficult to sack someone for underperformance. Instead we get stuck in a cycle of performance management ending in (usually) a move to a different post. I've also seen voluntary redundancy schemes where we've lost large numbers of excellent staff while all the coasters just cling on for dear life. It's massively frustrating but the whole sector seems terrified of getting caught up in an unfair dismissal case.

I've worked in four different HE institutions and it's the same across the board unfortunately.

I have extensive experience of both sectors and found that people arriving from the private sector to the public have been quite surprised at the high standards expected. The old public/private argument that the private sector is better/more efficient/better organised is a myth. There are good and bad examples in both sectors, and equally good and bad leaders.

This. And the argument that business methods and the free market should be applied to public services has been responsible for some almighty cockups over the years.

I was HRD in three HEIs over a 25 year period before I retired. Dismissed many staff over the years, just didn’t make a song and dance about it. Having said that some HEIs still operate statutes that are very unwieldy and sometimes the effort required to dismiss for under-performance can inhibit line managers from seeing the process through.

Schools are different ... they can be very cut throat.

Generally public sector though ... yes absolutely.

Things that cause you to lose your job

• exposing corruption or inefficiency
• trying to make people who are in a union do some/any work
• being too good at your job and showing up the rest

I'm not sure its much different in the private sector. I think it takes a lot to get somebody fired - there are are so many hoops to jump through when it comes to poor performance rather than gross misconduct that I suspect a lot of managers choose to avoid it, or kick things off but then the employee improves just enough and for just long enough to keep them around until the process has to start again.
I've also definitley heard it said at my work that 'a bum on the seat is better than nobody' which is obviously ridiculous and often not actually true when that 'bum' is creating work for everyone else, and we'd be better off without them... But I suspect there's a worry that if they get rid of the person they might lose the budget and not be able to recruit someone else to fill their place.

I am a line manager in the public sector experiencing this very thing. My useless direct report is protected and somehow I am at fault for following HR policies.

I just got an 'exceeded' on our mid yesr review (to show I am not a waste of space and hopefully valuable to the team) and I am now looking for an internal move.

It is shocking how difficult it is to get rid of someone in the public sector. And I am a raging lefty, fully paid member of my union. I still think it is awful.

This was my experience as well.

I cant comment on higher education but Ive seen the same thing happen in our company and in others and it appears to be a case of the higher ups not wanting to be seen as the bad guy and instead, either passing if off to HR to deal with when its critical or, simply ignoring it completely to avoid confrontation.

People dont seem to want to deal with conflict and people management these days.

”To get the sack, it would have to be rape on a grand scale. And not just with students, either. That would only amount to a slight misdemeanour. No, for dismissal it would have to be nothing less than buggering the Bursar.”

Dr Frank Bryant, Educating Rita. Willy Russell

Only once, and they committed a criminal offence and were lucky to escape a custodial sentence.

You cannot deny that the public sector does have that reputation though.

Sadly, that is very common. I have seen it in local authority and housing sectors!

I used to work in the public sector - a senior manager with a very “rules driven” job went on sick leave - as I did the same job for a different department I picked up their work - during the three months she was off I discovered multiple errors, and several things that ended up in a large fine. I had to contacted the relevant body to declare the problem (there was no way I was risking my reputation so reporting was the only option). They still work for the public body in the same job….

You are spot on. I work in HR in the private sector and my Mum works in HR in a local authority. Her org go through ridiculously long processes to dismiss people and then they almost always get their job back when they appeal. The crap she has to put up with blows my mind. In my role, when I occasionally have to do a dismissal, I ensure its done in a way that’s fair and as dignified as possible but we move much faster and an appeal would very rarely be compelling.

My experience of the private sector is that the levels of bullying, casual misogyny and racism are overlooked in a way that wouldn't be tolerated in most public sector organisations. I cannot believe what I have witnessed people get away with. It's never happened to me personally but the friends that have been shouted at, sworn at and basically humiliated in front of colleagues have all worked in the private sector. Absolutely would be fired for this in most public sector organisations, although not sure about HE specifically.

I also think it is far easier to fire people in the private sector if your face doesn't fit etc.

Both situations are terrible in my opinion.

Public sector too. Yes, we have strong performance management policies, including capability. There is a support part of the plan, to try and develop staff with targets to meet. If the targets are not met, then next stage is capability. This part is six weeks.

I often work with teachers and head teachers being put through these processes. They either improve, decide to leave or have their contract terminated.

Ofsted, sadly is also another stick. Impending OFSTED with expectation of poor judgements means heads and staff choose to jump before being publically humiliated or once they are publically humiliated they leave.

In a sponsored Academy arrangement ( school served with an Academy order by the Department For Education - inadequate or a requires improvement judgment x2 ) it is very unusual for a trust to keep the same failing staff and contracts are terminated too.

My family member works in HR and loves sacking people. I call her the unscrupulous sociopath! She's worked in both local authority and private and you're right, she can't get her evil fix from local authority!

She said she got a £50,000 bonus for sacking enough people in the private sector. Could that be true? Something about targets.

Absolutely 100% what I have experienced too.

Universities are not public sector. They are independent from government and employees are not working for the state. The USS (pension) is the largest private pension in the UK. Universities are officially third sector ie charities.

But in answer to your question, I have never known an employee to be sacked in academia. In the private sector I’ve also never known an employee in a professional role to be sacked.

I am currently wanting to get rid of someone from my team. It's virtually impossible as nothing he does (or more importantly doesn't do) isn't gross misconduct. It's so draining

I worked in HE. In my depth I knew 3 people (not academics) sacked for gross misconduct. Two were for financial fraud, one for something else. None appealed.