To ask about being fired from public sector

[Bringbackspring]

This may be very unreasonable to ask, and there isn't much point to it as nothing will come from this. But AIBU to ask if anyone on here has ever known someone lose their job in the higher education (HE) sector? I'm not talking about a fixed term or casual appointment coming to it's natural end and it not being renewed. I'm talking about staff from any of the HE 'job families' (not just lecturing, there are 100's of job types in HE) being given the boot either mid-contract or from a permanent contract.

I have worked in several UK universities over the past 20 years. I have worked with mostly brilliant people who really go above and beyond, and lots of good people who just get on and do their job to the letter. All fine. I love the work and it makes it easy to get about of bed for as it's work that helps a lot of people.

However, I have worked with a handful of absolute waste of space coasters. People who are incompetent (despite being given training, and endless amounts of support), people who are lazy and will seemingly sit back and just let everyone else pick up the slack because everyone else is too conscientious to just let it all fall apart. One person could not follow even the most basic health and safety protocols (think spilling toxic chemicals regularly and just wandering off to let someone else find and sort it) and was generally a walking hazard!

Not once have I ever seen a case of one of these people losing their job. Only once have I seen a line manager escalate someone to HR (following procedure) and the senior dept. leaders turned on the line manager. The useless employee was protected, and apologised to, and the line manager ended up handing her notice in. So we ended up losing a brilliant member of staff in order to keep a useless one.

I am getting a bit fed up of everyone, including very senior people, being very well aware of these people's short comings, and the impact it has on the teams who work with them. But nothing is ever done about it. It's like HE is terrified of firing people because it's not a very 'wellbeing' sort of thing to do. What about the wellbeing of everyone else!!

In the private sector, I get the impression that coasters wouldn't last long. But maybe I am wrong?

I have worked in the NHS for 23 years. I know one HCA who was fired for being drunk at work and one social worker who resigned just before her final disciplinary meeting (she fabricated meetings so she could take mornings off work). I know of a couple more nurses who resigned before NMC tribunals.

Very hard across the PS, if not impossible. I’ve had situations of staff who had committed criminal offences at work but were still paid off rather than sacked.

I was starting capability proceedings with one employee (on 50k a year) who then said it was racial discrimination and they would raise a grievance about this. I left at that point. They are still there!

Not HE but public sector and have seen any number of people sacked for a range of reasons including poor attendance, poor performance and poor conduct. It probably takes longer than it might in the private sector, but it definitely happens!

I have worked in the NHS for 30 years. The rubbish ones get moved sideways or pop up at another trust. If you report a complaint about somebody they get extra support and longer training. Even severe sexual indiscretions are not causes for sacking. In our trust, they don’t want the expense and hassle of court case, they lack a backbone and won’t take these people on.

Most upsetting is when horrific patient care is also not taken seriously. A rudimentary investigation takes place and then the person gets some extra training and is allowed to carry on.

It is beyond depressing for the hard-working and decent staff amongst us.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. It seems my experience is not an isolated one. While it's sad that nothing can be done in reality, it has been cathartic to write my post and get a bit of frustration out in an anonymous way!

Yep. Public sector for most of my working life and it seems that the crapper you are the more you’re praised. I work with some people who either do literally nothing (and I’m not joking) or they actively mess up everything, and somehow they are seen as amazing because they’re ‘friendly.’

It is partly why I am now moving on.

I've seen this a lot in the last 15 years. They are moved around rather than disciplined.

I've worked in HE for a long, long time. To get sacked you basically need to murder one of your colleagues and even then, depending on how popular your victim was, you might only get shuffled to a different department...

This exactly. I work in a university, in Ireland (so it is termed the public sector). I could tell many epic stories of the incompetence I have encountered and had to manage.

I managed a disciplinary process for 6 years for someone on my team, quite senior, well-paid, ostensibly qualified but did worse than nothing - lied, forged documents, tried to get colleagues in trouble, continuously failed to do even the most basic task assigned. He took a huge amount of my time and that of the level above me, made working conditions impossible, and was basically content to work his way through the system, knowing that the way it worked, at each stage of the process, he got about a year leeway before the next stage would commence, and he was happy to coast along in between, wasting all our time.

A separate process was a clever but utterly mad person who used the grievance process to take out personal animus she had against individuals, and while ultimately, she was disciplined for her abuse of the process, she put several individuals through utter hell in the time period of years that went on.

It's hugely frustrating. I have also worked in the private sector - there are other issues at play there and I have for example, seen very talented people sidelined or treated unfairly because maybe they didn't have the extrovert or showy nature expected so it's not in any way perfect - but no way would they accept this - rightly or wrongly they wouldn't be doing with and individuals would be out. Even if there was a potential legal challenge, sometimes they just factored in the payout that might accompany a successful outcome for the person taking action and were happy to pay it to be rid of them.

Getting rid of incompetent staff is time consuming and expensive- if they have a union rep, that union rep will give them all the tricks in the book to prolong the situation ( and be paid) and then the final demand for a payoff. In the meantime the person trying to remove such incompetence will find their diary full if meetings the person may not attend ( union tactic) and then they have to bend it backwards to be more than sympathetic ( as the union people will say to ACAS ‘ the boss called a spade a spade and explained the situation which upset the grown adult i represent please give them lots of compensation’)

Unions will support the most incompetent person - they do not consider the child or student or work colleague that is being damaged by said incompetent person

Union will encourage them not to attend meetings as they are ‘stressed’ - short notice to the manager seems ok in their book

Union will encourage incompetent person to go on sick leave at a suitable time ( maximising payout) then start meetings near to half pay point - but derail these until the opportune time to maximise payout

HR know these games and unions have been trained to use them - the whole system is rigged against the line manager trying to raise standards ( standards which the line manager is usually judged against)

in jobs where there is limited Union involvement- private sector etc - none of this farce would happen

and as a union rep agreed with me when I asked - they are aware this is tax payers money that should be spent on children or students but it’s the system
Which they screw to the hilt - it puts managers off dealing with staff but equally makes managers wary of giving permanent contracts etc as it all bites in the bum
in the end

and sometimes when colleagues who know the person is incompetent are asked to give evidence and statements- they don’t. They say they don’t want to get involved but actually most staff know that if the boss is looking at incompetent person A they are not looking at other colleagues

Just my experience folks

@Restinggoddess I recognise SO much of what you describe with unions. I recognise the value that union representation brings BUT the shameful conduct I have seen by union officials is something to behold. They are often individuals who themselves have gripes against the organisation and it is about 'sticking it to the man' a lot of the time.

I've worked I public and private and seen coasters be promoted to get rid, but not dismissed. I've certainly been disgusted by thr lack of respect shown in the private sector, but bullying still goes on in the public sector. I don't think either has it figured out. There are good sub organisations and managers, but you can't rely on finding them in any particular sector.

Only ever seen one person sacked in 8 years in FE. Very hard to sacked!

NHS here. Was given several people to manage who had proved unmanageable for other managers. Told I had to keep them on track, adhere to work expectations etc etc. When I did, one went straight to my senior manager, who decided to move her to another team behind my back. I hit the roof, insisted on a meeting with all parties and to hash out what was going on. Still resulted in the staff person being moved, but also gave me a chance to point out that she had no grounds for complaining other than being asked to do the job she was employed to do and meet the expectations that all members of the team were expected to meet. And I also pointed out that her behaviour to me contravened my rights at work (shouting, swearing, telling people I was stabbing her in the back) and that I would be taking action if there was any repeat and expected senior management support in that. They were all stunned.

I have to say our union were great. Could see that she was being completely unreasonable and did their best to provide a dose of reality for her.

In HE it is often easier to restructure or manage people out than go through any processes if they are out of their probation period. The unions are strong and active, and you (rightly) need a watertight case and documentation to progress with any hearings.

That said, I know of cases where people have been sacked on various grounds, though it takes a fair amount of persistence and evidence to do so. These things are often done discreetly and/or are negotiated, so, in many cases, you may not know about them.

I worked for decades in local government . In all that time only one person was sacked after years of playing the system supported by the Trade Union and his elected member buddies.
Skivers and under performers were tolerated . I had a colleague who came in in the morning , hung his jacket over the back of his chair and disappeared down to the seaside for the day.

Well I have seen (and been part of) dismissals in the public sector, including 2 stints in HE . My HR career spans both private sector, public (Local authorities & civil service but not NHS) and third sector/charity. I've advised on lots of cases over many years and supported managers on some very complicated ones.

It's true it can be harder & slower to manage under performance and deal with misconduct in the public sector. Senior management leadership attitude is often the problem as they want an easy life. But this isn't always the case - I've seen good and bad practice everywhere.

In the public sector, some of the reason is it has a culture of giving people 2nd chances for things (which isn't always a bad thing but it can go too far, for too long). There is a grievance culture in the public sector - counter claims against managers of bullying is just par for the course when managing performance and that slows things down too. Some of it is fear by management at all levels of employment tribunals - especially for claims of discrimination which can get a lot of local negative publicity. Local Authorities are very very scared of being accused of racism for example.

It's true there can be long winded and complicated policies and procedures with lots of stages in them. Bearing in mind most public sector organisations are heavily unionised and introducing or changing policies requires consultation with the TU's, who will understandably fight hard against anything that makes it simpler to dismiss people. Some is lack of ability & competence at management levels (often accompanied by risk averse or young/inexperienced HR staff). Also, experienced TU reps can really intimidate line managers who eventually give up trying. And HR as well - I've had local and regional officers be very aggressive in their language and behaviour towards me personally and I'm simultaneously having to deal with that whilst advising and supporting line manager/investigating officer/Chair of a hearing. It's not easy.

And another factor is structural. For example dismissing academics is complicated by Statutes and Articles of association which are legal documents and dictate often archaic procedures and criteria which make it incredibly hard to dismiss them.

But the private sector is not necessarily something to admire either. They can be very toxic cultures and just manage people out through making life miserable. A lot of private sector organisation do not recognise unions and so have simpler, more 'brutal' policies, for example on sickness absence triggers. They use probations more strictly to get rid of people (the opposite of the public sector which tend not to do so when they could/should). They'll dismiss for all sorts of reasons (or none) and rely on the 2 year inability to claim unfair dismissal to get away with it, along with not bothering to properly investigate disciplinary issues and just go straight to dismissal. If something looks a bit risky they will just throw money at it (and it's FAR harder to get SA's signed off in HE/LA's than people think).

So it's all very complicated and hard and difficult and nowhere near as simple as "public sector bad, private sector good" in terms of people management.

I don't work in the public sector, I work for a high street bank. The only people I've seen fired were for gross misconduct - of the 'stealing from customers' type.

I'm thinking of one guy in particular who was so thick, just transferring money from wealthy customers accounts into his own.

I think once a person gets past the initial 2 years employment it's a lot harder to manage them out. Unless they're women who ask for flexible working around childcare, and they'll just leave

Public sector HR here. We absolutely do dismiss for absence, performance and conduct.

There are robust processes that need to be followed to do it and I will agree in some cases it takes far longer than it ought to.

Agree with the comments about union reps. Delaying tactics seem to be a speciality for some of them.

It's swings and roundabouts really. I'd prefer to follow a full process and make sure everything possible had been done to resolve the issue over sacking someone without one just because it's quicker.

I think line managers need to take responsibility too. It's no good not addressing the problem for months/years on end and then suddenly deciding the person needs to go. By that point it's much harder to exit them, especially for low level performance/conduct matters.

@LemonGelato you've explained it far better than I have. It's not a simple comparison at all.

Yes, because of people who don't work in it and talk rubbish!

I’ve worked in similar roles but a different field. In my experience the really useless ones were promoted up away from the front line to where they could (theoretically) do less harm.

Some of the difference is a robust probationary period and expectations in the private sector. They exist to make money. They don’t exist for cuddly staff policies with years given to improve. A decision is taken on whether staff are let go at the end of the probation period or before redundancy pay is payable. The public sector doesn’t work in the same way and I’ve seen countless people stay in non jobs in local government. They also move people on rather than deal with them.

I heard from two separate unconnected people that a local government employee at my local council took “working from home” to new heights. They moved to Spain. Not sure what happened but the staff member was required to go into work for meetings so the change of address was discovered!

I work in the public sector and completely agree. It’s a long running joke nobody can be sacked.

The only people I know who have been sacked were fired for gross misconduct (diddling the expenses).

Everyone else goes "off sick with stress" for 6 months (fully paid) and then quietly disappears.

I was a low level NHS manager and it was impossible to sack incompetent, lazy staff who did no work and had horrible attitudes.

Then I whistle blew on dangerous prescribing and refused to make up patient records ... and a mysterious allegation was suddenly made against me that would have got me sacked, had I not have walked out there and then.

Private sector wouldn't get away with any of the nonsense that goes on in the public sector.