Not to fill the reusable advent calendar?

[moaningstoatpoacher]

Sitting here feeling like a right old cow. Suspect IABU but interested in opinions.

Kids were asked to tidy up their mess on Sunday pm. I was out, they were at home with dad. DD9 said to DD5 that she didn't have to tidy, dad couldn't make them, so dad asked DD5 to do the tidying downstairs and DD9 to do the bedroom. DD9 flew into rage, screaming and refusing. DD5 tidied downstairs.

I got home, DH asked for help (he's not incompetent, just wanted a bit of backup). I patiently explained to DD9 that dinner was ready, she needed to tidy before eating, and that dinner would be available until 7. She screamed a whole bunch of really nasty things at me, lots of hate wishing I would be sad and hurt and die a horrible death etc etc. Managed to pick up some stuff and come to dinner just before 7.

I said I wouldn't fill her reusable advent calendar because she had been so horrible to me. She behaves like this a lot losing it and screaming really nasty things. I explained for the five thousandth time that the tiredness/not wanting to tidy is fine but wishing death on me/anyone else you're unhappy with isn't ok.

I want to fill her advent calendar and give her the happiness it brings. Mostly she's a kind and loving child who means the absolute world to me. Trouble is these rages are very common and have become a real habit with her (her excuse is 'well I was tired so that's why I get cross'). I know the punishment was stupidly big but we haven't found any way of getting through to her that it isn't ok to behave like this. We've talked and talked and talked to her but nothing ever sticks.

So:
YABU: Just say the same old stuff to her and fill the advent calendar
YANBU: Stick to your word, don't fill it

To me, I think a punishment that lasts almost a month and takes place several days after the event anyway is too remote and too long-lasting for a 9 year old. I would give her a way to 'earn' it back before Friday.
I absolutely agree that her behaviour isn't acceptable though and you do need to implement consequences. This doesn't seem to fit the bill though.

Oh dear. This is the sort of thing I do.

I think if it was me, I would say something like ‘I really want to give you the advent calendar treats but I am not happy with your behaviour. First of all, I would like an apology for the way you spoke to me. It is not acceptable. Secondly, I need you to tidy up your bedroom. I will fill your calendar if this is completed without drama, but to be very clear, if you speak to me like that again in the run up to Christmas, the calendar will be emptied. Moving forward, I will not tolerate this kind of behaviour and there will be consequences’

Disclaimer:
a) I am soft
b) I am more excited about filling my kids calendars than they are and would be gutted to not do it

I think any punishment needs to be (1) immediate and (2) directly related to the poor behaviour eg "you didn't tidy your toys as requested. To get them out of my way, I have put them all in that box (and if they got muddled up, you'll realise that next time, it's in your own interests to tidy them away yourself)"

Threatening to withhold dinner isn't a route I would go down personally. Many children have / develop disordered eating. I try very hard never to use food as a reward or punishment

And punishing her for the whole of Advent seems harsh, for one incident. Perhaps you could give her a chance to redeem herself before Advent starts?

You might find it helpful to research intrinsic / extrinsic motivation

Your 9 year old wishes a slow, painful death on you? That's really, really disturbing. I waa originally going to say it's cruel not to refill the advent calender. Sit down with her and write down the behaviours she needs to change. Then with her help list what she can do if she's tired and about to blow. For example she tells you she's tired and can rest for an hour but then does the tidying later. Tell her that you will not tolerate the vile comments that she makes any longer. Maybe tell her she's not getting the advent calender for the first week but if her behaviour improves as she wants she can earn back those 7 days worth of treats. Would she be open to these ideas?

Sometimes cracking down that bit harder does no harm at all, especially now you’ve said you’ll do it.
I’d follow through but maybe see if I could find a picture advent calendar for her instead this year, so she doesn’t completely miss out. She’ll remember this.

Yanbu

Easy!

When she’s relaxed and calm, sit for a chat and say ‘oh no, I’m feeling really bad, how can we fix what went wrong yesterday? I was cross, You were mean and we said no advent calendar! That feels sad! How can we fix it? Can you think of a way that’s fair?’

She may suggest no calendar on dec 1st, or that she’ll do extra tidying to earn it back.

Take it day by day. By the end of the day if she has behaved she can have her reward of finding something inthe calendar for that day. A 24 day long punishment is too long for an 8 yo to get their head around.

I like what @pickledandpuzzled said as it will make her work out how to make amends.

First of all, I would like an apology for the way you spoke to me. It is not acceptable. Secondly, I need you to tidy up your bedroom. I will fill your calendar if this is completed without drama, but to be very clear, if you speak to me like that again in the run up to Christmas, the calendar will be emptied. Moving forward, I will not tolerate this kind of behaviour and there will be consequences’

This is perfect and exactly what I would be doing/saying.

I don't think it was the best thing to do but I think you probably need to follow through (or offer a way to earn back at most and stick to it) now you have said it.

My parents cancelled Xmas entirely because we'd been so bad one year, which we were all warned would happen in advance. All we got was a new pair of trainers each. Family were allowed to give us gifts but we got nothing apart from the trainer's from our parents.

I'm sure she'll cope without an advent calendar. You've said it now so I think if you go back on it she'll learn that your threats are empty so her behaviour won't improve.

Actually I think it could work. OP has said they've talked and talked but nothing gets through.

A small but tangible reminder each day over the advent period may well help it to sink in that the sort of behaviour she's displayed is unacceptable. At 9 she's old enough to remember what she did. With a reinforcement of the message that Christmas is about love (and possibly that Santa doesn't bring toys to naughty children - am not suggesting OP withholds Christmas presents but it's amazing how this can sharpen the mind of children in December).

Oh this is really interesting. Was totally expecting to be told I was being ridiculously cruel (that's what I feel like).

Thanks very much for all the suggestions of what to do/say - you won't be surprised to know that we have said and done a lot of things along these lines but it is really useful to know that others think they are the right things to say and to have them put clearly as @BoilingHotand50something and @pickledandpuzzled said. Also getting her on board with suggesting what she thinks should happen is very constructive.

Still torn!

@Laurdo
Just interested to see if it worked for your behaviour...

No, you aren’t cruel in the slightest. It’s actually fine for discipline to also be (and feel like) a proper punishment sometimes. Missing out on an advent calendar for one year will do her no harm at all.

When I have given a punishment out in the heat of the moment, which I later regretted, I have no issues to backtrack.
I know the conventional advice is to follow through no matter what, however I feel there is real value in being able to admit you had made a mistake, discuss why and then find a path through that is fairer and more reasonable.
If my child had done something unreasonable in the heat of the moment I would expect them to be able to reflect and apologise, therefore I should be role modelling that I can do that too.
I would definitely allow the advent calendar. Any punishment dished out after the event, rather than clearly explained as a consequence at the time, seems very unfair. If she is getting upset a lot I would definitely try to work out a new way of managing it.
Children are all very different and whilst some may respond well to doing things when asked or when threatened with a punishment, others need a different approach. If she is a generally well behaved and loving child I would be focusing on that and just absolutely ignoring the outbursts. Let her have them and feel it, but move on and not get impacted by them.

you could put coal (a stone) in the first day, and see how her behaviour improves. Reiterate until Friday that there will be punishment for saying the things she said and it's not acceptable.
See how it goes and be ready to put a stone in day 2, or a treat?

A whole month of punishment seems harsh, you know your DD and if she will be truly sorry or not.

Filling a calendar and emptying it again if there's another nasty outburst? That sounds ridiculous to me.

Since that activity is something you very much want to do, OP, what's the point in using it as any sort of lever? Pick something else - WIFI restriction?

We never had 'filled' calendars, they were always the pretty, glittery paper ones so I personally don't see the appeal of the chocolate ones or refillable ones (presumably with chocolate in) and it colours my response.

I think yes, follow through.

But be aware that it could be hormonal. I was a bit like this with mum for about 4 months before my first period started aged 10... which was way too young to have the mental maturity to be able to handle the crappyness of it all.

Yeah it definitely did and we knew anytime threats were made they meant it. We all did well at school and are now successful adults in our 30s. We have a great relationship with our parents.

I wouldnt weaponise christmas. I'm not sure what you can do if you've said it though.

I think you need to think out consequences better. In the tidying example I'd have said il be up with a bin bag in 5 minutes and everything on the floor is being taken away. Then step until she is calm for the shouting.

Wow get a grip if there are no medical issues why the heck are you allowing this bad behaviour. No respect for you as parents because she's been allowed to get away with it. No way would I or hubby allow this in our house.

I would only unfill it for a week. But really I would do what we do- because our dc are chocolate focused materialists, we haven’t gone full alternate, but we do a chocolate every second day and a kindness task every second day. But our kids definitely need motivating so if they haven’t done the kindness task then there is no chocolate until it’s done. We fill the next day each night because 1. They would take it if it was there, and 2. You sometimes need to swap the kindness tasks around to be suitable for that day, and 3. They regularly knock all the compartments out of their calendars and everything would go everywhere.
obviously we do not do elf on a shelf because as parents we are mere humans and the simple task of one chocolate -task update per night in advent has us on our knees.

I think your number one issue is to find out why she is having these tantrums and saying such awful things.
She is blaming it on tiredness, so the first thing I'd try is an earlier bedtime. Then I'd limit screen time to the absolute minimum. We all know screen time is terrible for children, so you can present it as a solution rather than a punishment.
I'd check with her if everything is OK at school, and I'd also ask for a meeting with her teacher and the Sendco/ Inclusion manager. I wonder if she is neurodivergent? I have known a few girls behave like this who have been subsequently diagnosed, so it might be worth looking into to help her get the right support.