Not to fill the reusable advent calendar?

[moaningstoatpoacher]

Sitting here feeling like a right old cow. Suspect IABU but interested in opinions.

Kids were asked to tidy up their mess on Sunday pm. I was out, they were at home with dad. DD9 said to DD5 that she didn't have to tidy, dad couldn't make them, so dad asked DD5 to do the tidying downstairs and DD9 to do the bedroom. DD9 flew into rage, screaming and refusing. DD5 tidied downstairs.

I got home, DH asked for help (he's not incompetent, just wanted a bit of backup). I patiently explained to DD9 that dinner was ready, she needed to tidy before eating, and that dinner would be available until 7. She screamed a whole bunch of really nasty things at me, lots of hate wishing I would be sad and hurt and die a horrible death etc etc. Managed to pick up some stuff and come to dinner just before 7.

I said I wouldn't fill her reusable advent calendar because she had been so horrible to me. She behaves like this a lot losing it and screaming really nasty things. I explained for the five thousandth time that the tiredness/not wanting to tidy is fine but wishing death on me/anyone else you're unhappy with isn't ok.

I want to fill her advent calendar and give her the happiness it brings. Mostly she's a kind and loving child who means the absolute world to me. Trouble is these rages are very common and have become a real habit with her (her excuse is 'well I was tired so that's why I get cross'). I know the punishment was stupidly big but we haven't found any way of getting through to her that it isn't ok to behave like this. We've talked and talked and talked to her but nothing ever sticks.

So:
YABU: Just say the same old stuff to her and fill the advent calendar
YANBU: Stick to your word, don't fill it

Good luck @moaningstoatpoacher - hope everyone is a bit happier and calmer tonight and you have a lovely run up to Xmas.

It you take away bin bags and bin bags of stuff and she doesn't even notice then it suggests you're buying her far too much. Now you've put yourself in a terrible position, you lashed out and took away the advent calendar and now you're thinking about back tracking and giving into her appalling behaviour.

To be honest I think you need to look at your own behaviour and understand that her behaviour is a result of your inconsistent parenting and spoiling her with 'stuff'.

I think it would be awful to completely stop the advent calendar and it would also be awful to completely go back on your word. So I think you need to tell her that she loses a day of the calendar every time she completely loses her temper - so day one is lost. You also need to take to her about alternative ways to handle her emotions.

I also think it's about time to have some kind of system where they earn by doing jobs ie their pocket money is dependent on them doing x, y and z. I agree that coming down hard on her isn't the answer it will just alienate her - but at the same time she can't just get away with horrendous behaviour.

I admit I’m a soft touch. But looking at the bigger picture, childhood is short and childhood christmases just come in a handful. Mine are grown now and I’d hate to look back on even one I’d not tried to make happy and magical. And at 9, you don’t have many magical ones left. I’d back down with a stern chat and get tough after Christmas. But yes, I am a soft touch!

She said really worrying things to you. I’d say to have a word with the school and check if her friends play violent games. I’d be concerned why she’s thinking and saying these things. Also why make this work for yourself? Cancel the reusable calendar completely.

I would have a talk (I know you have already) and say that you want her to be able to earn back her advent calendar treats so she will get to open it each day in the evening providing she's not said cruel things to anyone. If she hasn't great she gets that days treat, if she has she loses that days treat. This way you still have the consequences but it's a more manageable day by day one and she's able to still get the treat if she behaves.

Don't make it the year they had no.advent calendar. You will have forgotten about what they didn't do... but always remember they didn't get an advent calendar. I say this as a mum of two 21 year old. Give them a way to earn it back by Friday.

Your youngest is 5 so I would choose what you are going to say carefully and you can have two separate conversations but at 9 your DD should be told that tidying is important in case there is a house fire and you want to be able to get out and get them out. You should have an escape plan already discussed so the children know what to do if the smoke alarm goes off. And you know how the hell you are going to get out of your house.

I know schools can cover this in KS2, there are lots of resources from fire stations with lesson plans, all online so you can see how they phrase it. Both my children tidied daily because they both had medical conditions that meant me or Dh were woken in the night and went into their rooms to tend to them. That meant I didn't want to trip over anything so daily tidying just becomes the norm. And yes, I have personally woken up to my house on fire and it haunts me, luckily I was a young teen but with no parents in the house, just siblings.

I would explain that there are lots of things you don't like doing, tell her what they are, it might be laundry, ironing, shopping for food, endless meal cooking and planning. Empathise with her not wanting to tidy. In school classrooms are tidied after art/tech lessons and we make sure everyone does it. There is no choice. I would chat about her hurtful language, it is fine to be angry but we do not name call, lash out, throw things, hit people, say hurtful things. I would say I am worried you may say it to her friends who wouldn't want to be her friend after that. Ask her how she would feel if her best friend said horrid things to her.

Re the advent calendar for now I would stand by it otherwise she doesn't get a punishment. Maybe tell her she loses the first 2 or 3 days but it is behaviour dependent for the rest of it being filled. 2 or 3 days of seeing her sister have her advent calendar treats helps to reinforce her good behaviour reward.

Modelling behaviour, how you and your Dh deal with conflict, be seen to apologise, admit when you are wrong goes a long way to children being able to resolve conflict too. Ask her what would help her in the future re tidying, maybe to her favourite songs or with an audio book on, a parent guiding her. So deal with the past, look to how to do better in the future. My youngest child is now 17, and yes his room is very tidy.

Have a kid like this, we started trying to take things away and he got angrier and angrier - have to think how far are you prepared to go (tarnish the whole Christmas build up for all of you?) and is it really worth it? Ours is very sensitive to shame, and the way we were highlighting his failings by telling him off / getting upset with him was very hard for him to cope with. We don't try and get really into the weeds of what's gone wrong now while he's upset, and he is slowly learning as he gets older that he needs to have a bit of space to calm down sometimes before he can respond calmly and explain the issue as he sees it so we can discuss things. Kids really are all different and I don't feel it's our place to control them - I want to teach them to do the right things because it's the right thing to do (intrinsic motivation), not because I'm going to reward / punish them to keep them in line, I don't think that really helps when they get that bit older and you can't watch them all the time, or you run out of things to threaten them with.

I'm a big fan of Gentle Parenting and a book called the Explosive Child is recommended a lot - might be worth a look. But generally any "punishment" shouldn't be arbitrary but rather an outcome of the situation - e.g in this instance they've missed out on time to play by taking so long tidying.

One of mine really struggles with tidying her room - it's too big a task she just seems to get stuck - but if I say put away your clothes, time yourself for each type of thing and see what's quickest - she can manage that. Or collect all your things in this basket etc. But she does need tasks broken down and 'tidy the house ', well we'd have no chance! Just a thought

I was going to say this, I started at 10 and had a good few month's before that being vile to everyone.

it's not a partner, it is a parent/child relationship. As in school (3 times late, lunchtime detention, for eg) the boundaries/punishments are clear, which means that a sudden "right you don't get an advent calendar" for not tidying, 5 days before the calendar is due to be opened don't happen.

So: tidy room, you have until x hour then i come in with the bin bag and it stays in the garage for a week
And: do your homework by x time or there's no playing/gaming/tv time. (or playing/gaming/tv time is reduced by however much over x time the homework gets dragged out)
and: no backchat or there is no TV.

Everyone knows where they are in that case.

Your conflation of the parent/child and spousal relationship is, frankly, batshit.

Having clearly understood punishment/consequences has no bearing on how you talk to your children about what goes on in their lives. It is entirely possible to do both. As i know from experience.

or: they will remember when they told their mum they wanted them to die, and therefore the nice thing didn't happen?

(I'm not in the "no advent calendar" camp - but the things DD said were truly awful.

That’s fine @Brefugee - I don’t bring up my children by barking orders at them and demanding that things are done to my schedule. Your way sounds like a really miserable experience for your children who do what you want out of fear of punishment, not because they understand that family is a partnership where everyone pulls their weight.
Luckily I have older children so I know my way has worked with them. Equally, maybe if I had really unpleasant children who needed orders, demands and punishment maybe I would have had to parent them differently.
The good thing is, we do what we think is best for our own children. Mine didn’t need punishments and rewards but I guess some do.

You are totally misunderstanding (on purpose?)

Where did i mention barking orders? You're not actually reading, you are projecting. My DCs are adults with families of their own.

And they never had "punishments" they had consequences. And indeed that did mean missing the odd day on an advent calender for not doing what they promised to do. Nobody is in therapy, and nobody needed orders.

You are the worst kind of mn projector. I hope it makes you feel good.

If you've said you won't fill the calendar then stick to what you said. But try to catch her being kind and then fill it as a reward for good behaviour. It is christmas after all (nearly) and you say she is generally a nice kid.

Going forwards make the punishment fit the crime. If my dc say their tiredness is the cause of any bad behaviour then its early bedtimes for a week to 'help them' and even an afternoon nap and don't think I wont make you even at 11 and 7! With the rages - does she have an outlet? Getting enough physical exercise? I find these to be great mood stabilisers for kids. I feel for you though cos it sounds difficult.

“Do your homework on time or there’s no tv or gaming time” is my definition of barking orders. I would say to mine “are you doing your homework before or after dinner? Once it’s done you can go on your iPad”.
“tidy your room or I come in with a bin bag and it stays in the garage” or I would say “this room looks messy - I’d like you to tidy it up by putting things on shelves or cupboards. Anything you don’t need any more we can put away or even donate to charity”
Maybe you sound nicer in real life but if you talk how you type you just sound kind of miserable.

then you need to widen your imagination. it can be as simple as "well, if you spend your time faffing about with your sister and not doing your homework, then there's no time for TV because it's nearly bedtime."

if you can'T imagine anything between your perfect parenting and "barking orders" that's a you problem.

I didn't mention donating anything to charity - perhaps you need to re-read.

How About filling it with whatever you were going to fill it with, but adding a slip of paper with a mixture of things like a kindness affirmation, or a very small thing they could do like putting a coin in the guide dog thing when you are going shopping/putting a small item in the food bank/toy collection etc, or a really small chore like ‘pick up one thing from your room’. Or “think of something to calm you down when you are angry”. Maybe it will start them thinking about kindness and thinking of others etc.

Talk to her tell her you want to fill the advent calendar but feel she needs to learn how to clean her room and communicate better come up with a plan going forward. You still have a few days give her a chance to redeem herself. She is 9 though so emotions run high.

I don’t think you can shame / punish her out of feeling rage. She’ll still feel it, but wont trust you to say it anymore.

Have you tried finding out what might be going on with her?

You can also explain that she says very hurtful things in a moment of calm.

Also when it comes to tidying up, breaking down tasks do they don’t feel overwhelming helps. Like: can you put the teddies in that box? One thing at a time.

Personally I would fill the calendar but use it as a reward system. If she misbehaves then you remove the treat for that day.

If it's something she likes then it could be an incentive to behave.