Not to fill the reusable advent calendar?

[moaningstoatpoacher]

Sitting here feeling like a right old cow. Suspect IABU but interested in opinions.

Kids were asked to tidy up their mess on Sunday pm. I was out, they were at home with dad. DD9 said to DD5 that she didn't have to tidy, dad couldn't make them, so dad asked DD5 to do the tidying downstairs and DD9 to do the bedroom. DD9 flew into rage, screaming and refusing. DD5 tidied downstairs.

I got home, DH asked for help (he's not incompetent, just wanted a bit of backup). I patiently explained to DD9 that dinner was ready, she needed to tidy before eating, and that dinner would be available until 7. She screamed a whole bunch of really nasty things at me, lots of hate wishing I would be sad and hurt and die a horrible death etc etc. Managed to pick up some stuff and come to dinner just before 7.

I said I wouldn't fill her reusable advent calendar because she had been so horrible to me. She behaves like this a lot losing it and screaming really nasty things. I explained for the five thousandth time that the tiredness/not wanting to tidy is fine but wishing death on me/anyone else you're unhappy with isn't ok.

I want to fill her advent calendar and give her the happiness it brings. Mostly she's a kind and loving child who means the absolute world to me. Trouble is these rages are very common and have become a real habit with her (her excuse is 'well I was tired so that's why I get cross'). I know the punishment was stupidly big but we haven't found any way of getting through to her that it isn't ok to behave like this. We've talked and talked and talked to her but nothing ever sticks.

So:
YABU: Just say the same old stuff to her and fill the advent calendar
YANBU: Stick to your word, don't fill it

The point about weaponising Christmas is a really good one. It's hard to know what to do for the best, especially in the moment, but using any desired 'thing' (calendar?) can taint it and that you certainly don't want.

Bin bag method as Ohtobetwentytwo suggests is really effective.

Maybe say you'll review it in a few days if her behaviour has improved. But any tantrums (and I'd probably label them that) will mean that you'll need the choc to make you feel better 😂 sorry!

I think too harsh.

she’s 9, she’s a kid and Christmas is extremely exciting.

I think that your h, or you, should have supported her to get the room tidied.

I would try to get an apology for wishing death etc, that’s as far as I’d go with that. I would probably explain about someone in the family or a pet who is actually dead and how upsetting it was.

Bin bag method is very much used here! Results in lots of bin bags piling up... DD is queen of 'out of sight out of mind'. But we do keep going with it (if only because it's the only way we can get across the floor sometimes). Definitely some more thought needed from us about consequences.

I like the idea about putting something else in the calendar (maybe to encourage kindness). I also appreciate ALL the different perspectives here! (Including the one that we just shouldn't allow this kind of behaviour - she's literally never gone unchallenged, but I'm now considering whether it is simply time to take DD back to the shop and ask for a refund 😂)

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions

Oh God. See I'm a big gentle parenting advocate generally, but this seems to me the worst of both worlds:

(a) talking to her like she's a toddler, not a 9 year old (maybe it's all the exclamation marks and 'oh no!', but I'm hearing this in such a babying voice and that isn't appropriate for a 9yo).

(b) putting all the responsibility on her to figure out what she has to say/do to get her treat back - it's like a test or a trick, given that obviously not whatever she suggests will cut the mustard in the OP's book nor should it - if the DD says "Well why don't we forget it and you just fill my calendar like normal", which is a pretty obvious solution from a child's perspective, she's not going to say yes, is she? So the child has to keep 'guessing' until she guesses right basically. Feels very manipulative.

The girl needs clarity, and consequences, and an appropriate way to make amends. She needs this scaffolded for her, because she's a child and thus pretty low on introspection and empathy, but she doesn't need to be patronised like a toddler.

OP, the obvious advice is not to make a threat you're not happy to follow through, but I do this all the time so no judgment here :P

Now you are where you are, I would just be straight with her.

"I felt very angry and upset when you refused to help the family by tidying your mess, and when you were rude and unkind to me and to daddy. When we're angry and upset, sometimes we say things we don't mean - you said some nasty things to me that I'm sure you didn't mean; and I told you I wouldn't give you your advent calendar. Now I've calmed down a bit, I've realised that isn't how I want to deal with this - I don't want us to be fighting all the way until Christmas, and I don't want to make you sad every morning when DD5 opens hers and you don't have one. That isn't going to make me feel better about what you said and did, and I don't think it will help you to do better next time."

Then have a conversation with her about reasonable expectations within the family - talk about the things you and her father do to make life good for you all, and explain that you need everybody's help to keep it that way. If she doesn't already have regular chores, then give her some - so if tidying was just an ad hoc "It's a pigsty in here, tidy up before dinnertime", instead turn it into "you and your sister's job is to make sure the floor is clear of toys etc by dinnertime every day. If this isn't done you lose X privilege" - and this should be something short term and regular, rather than a punishment that will run and run for ages and torture you all. Something like "you can't watch TV before bedtime" or even the dreaded "no afters" - whatever has value for her but won't drag out forever.

As and when the system fails and she doesn't do her chore, and throws a fit when you tell her to do it, you just remind her "This behaviour is not acceptable, it's not how we talk to each other in this family. It's ok to be angry, it's not ok to call me names/threaten me/say unkind things to me etc." Don't get involved, don't argue, and don't 'punish' her for what she's said, just hold the line on the task and the consequences if she doesn't do the task, and don't let her see the unkind talk is getting to you. She's doing it to get her way, to either to be let off the task or let off the punishment. So when neither of those things happen, and all she's got for her trouble is a sore throat and a mother who, whilst not getting all het up, doesn't want to be around her when she's behaving like that, she'll start learning the only one suffering for it is herself. The good thing about this as well is, if you already have a system with a set expectation and a set punishment, rather than a more woolly expectation that she 'be nice', it avoids you having to come up with something nuclear on the spot that you then don't want to have to hold yourself to later.

For the 1st week put a note with a different chore that she is required to complete in. If she completes all these without being rude/moaning/nasty she can have traditional gifts after that.

Wow, I would be taking the whole calendar away and giving her coal for Christmas.

Wishing you sadness and death?

I'm sorry you have to put up with that. Put your foot down op.

Qualifies as naughty list.

@herewegoroundthebastardbush my 9 yr olds who behaved like this had attachment disorder, so needed to be careful not to shame them and to rebuild the loving relationship before challenging the behaviour.

If the child says ‘no sanction’, then the parent points out it isn’t fair on the younger child who behaved or on the mum she was nasty to.

Children often come up with a much more draconian solution anyway, and you get to be kinder than they’d hoped.

Maybe buy her a basic non chocolate calendar with the doors to open, she still gets a calendar but no treats. But I'd say the consequences need to be more immediate, but it really could be hormonal too, if she shows contrition afterwards. If not then you need rock solid boundaries on what is acceptable.

I am a fairly strict parent but I’m also of the full belief that when a child acts horribly, they’re at their most needy and we need to figure out what’s going on behind the behaviour.
When everyone is calm, maybe a walk or a car ride and a chat about “your screaming and yelling hurtful things is really awful, but it isn’t what you’re normally like, is there anything going on that you’d like to talk to me about.” Ask about school, friendships etc and try to let her open up.
Let her know that heading into teenage years she will feel grumpy and angry sometimes and she needs to work on some ways of dealing with that, which don’t involve screaming at her mum.

If you just go down the punishment route you risk either escalating a situation and, over the next few years, having to think up worse and worse punishments, or equally making her shut right down. On the cusp of teenager years you want her open to talk to you.

Id move away from punishments other than natural consequences entirely to be fair as they just don’t really work for older kids, breed resentment and damage your relationship going forward.

If she’s that tired she needs to go bed earlier and have a nap in the day like babies and toddlers do doesn’t she? Suggest that you’re going to ensure that happens from now on to her so she doesn’t keep getting so tired.

I agree that there need to be natural consequences and a discussion. But OP also needs to show that she is prepared to follow through on the "threats" which is why i suggested one rock - or message from Father Christmas about doing what you're told / helping the family keep the home nice. And then if there isn't a tantrum about that, from 2nd to 24th December the calendar is full as normal.

But there also need to be discussions about behaviours and consequences. Like a tarif of punishments/rewards for particular behavours.

I don’t think I could disagree more about having a tariff of rewards and punishments for behaviour.

I have a feeling that the reason your 9-year-old is already out of control is because you don't set clear boundaries and stick to them. Bluntly, that is poor parenting. You need to demonstrate that there are consequences for her actions and you need to do it quickly. She will be a teenager soon.

It is a bit severe, but you have to do something to follow through or you will be stuck with crap behaviour on ongoing basis. @BoilingHotand50something got it bang on. Do this.

We have a reusable advent calendar, and I fill it weekly or so as sometimes I put in tiny different things and I want it to be a surprise.
How about you fill the calendar nightly or so, and make it clear on the day that any terrible behaviour will have an impact on the following day’s drawer being full or empty? Then it’s a short time frame and the next day she can be rewarded for being reasonable.

so you don't think there should be boundaries?

this

We do set clear boundaries and expectations for behaviour. That doesn't mean that these boundaries aren't challenged. One of our children challenges them a lot more than the other one. I'm not going to rise to the digs about poor parenting - I was on here asking if the punishment I had meted out was a fair one. I'm grateful for the constructive suggestions - loads of them - on how to deal better with the situation. There is some good wisdom on here! Thanks all

That’s literally a completely different thing. How would you feel if your partner kept a “tariff” of punishments and rewards for how well or otherwise he/she perceived you had behaved? “Didn’t clean up right after dinner? That’s on the tariff wall for you, no watching your fave tv show”. “You felt scared and worried about an issue at work and lashed out at me - that’s a punishment of no treat this weekend, no I won’t listen to your reasons!”
I think we sometimes forget that children have complex things going on too - now we don’t know, maybe this is a poorly parented spoilt child who never has boundaries imposed, but from the OP, it doesn’t sound that way.
In my experience, you might get good short term results with rewards and punishments but in the long term you need understanding, talking and natural consequences.

I completely agree. It's one thing a four year old having tantrums like this, but not a nine year old. I think I would have come down far harder on my daughter at that age than just not giving her an advent calendar!

If this is happening often, then she's clearly struggling for some reason, no child likes been in trouble all the time, so I'd guess she doesn't want to behave like this, but can't control it.

I prefer to focus on changing future behaviour then getting hung up on 'revenge' for things in the past, so would try and frame it as an opertunity to help her do better. Could she possibly earn each days treat on a ongoing basis. Like 'let's have a good day today, then I'll put tomorrow's treat in while your in bed'. With lots of encouragement and reminders of what needs to happen to make sure the next box is filled.

In the Ops scenario, I would have dealt with it a bit differently. When I saw that something needed tidying I would have said “we need to get the house/room tidied, shall we do that before dinner so we can relax?” If she started with a rage; “you’re over reacting about a pretty small thing. If you preferred to tidy up after dinner we could have done it then. I’m not going to engage with you while you’re yelling, so I would like you to calm down, tidy up and then come and have some dinner”

It does sound like an extreme reaction - is there any thought of anything like autism? I only ask as although I have little experience myself, my close friend says her daughter finds transitioning from one task to another, especially unexpectedly, quite difficult and she finds this to be a trigger point. She deals with it by making sure plenty of notice is given - so saying “you’ve got 10pm more minutes of X and then we need to tidy the room” - and also being very explicit on what she means - “tidy the room” might be to o vague, but “put clothes in the hamper, make your bed and put toys in the box” breaks it down into manageable steps.

@Ozgirl75 trouble is, I wasn't there at the beginning, I only walked in when the angry had already started!

I guess what this has made me understand is that there are lots of different approaches to behaviour like this, and that probably I should listen to my gut, which tells me that for this child, in this situation, just leaving the calendar empty won't improve her behaviour. I wish it would. But some kind of adaptation along the lines of the suggestions I've had here is likely a good idea and might actually help things (i.e. be more of a consequence than a punishment, make her think about her behaviour without causing her to flip out).

Yep, I'm soft. But actually... DD tends to be more well behaved, the softer we are (and I don't mean by removing boundaries). If we get harsh and punishing with her, she gets harsher back. The rage is definitely more than just her being a spoilt brat. Still not ok though

@moaningstoatpoacher this is what I find with mine too - if I’m cross and punishy, they don’t react better, but when we have an open dialogue, they do.