To think Europen governments need to respond to immigration?

[Finlesswonder]

So the Netherlands is going to have a far right government.
Sweden has moved to the right.
Finland has shut its borders.
Countries that have traditionally been liberal are hardening and irrespective of the many issues listed its to do with immigration.

Ireland has seen violent protests last night following a series of stabbings.
In the UK we obviously had Brexit.

I think governments need to start responding to voters feelings on immigration as if they don't we will continue to see a general slide to the right in Europe, when actually these countries aren't right wing: it feels like a single issue is distorting the entire political landscape?

"Ukraine's application looks like it's about to stall hard and fast due to financial and political reasons (posted about this last night on the Ukrainian thread)."

Yes Redtoothbrush I was reading similar on this thread -

The EU's geopolitical contribution to 🇺🇦 war was meant to be € & EU integration, while US would lead on the harder (military) stuff. But these 2 pillars of EU support are now unravelling ahead of Dec EU leaders meeting

What's going on? Only read if you want to be depressed 1/

x.com/mij_europe/status/1727738027957510609?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

Yes, the west has done nothing to destabilise huge regions of the planet have they?

Remind me again, who was it that initially funded, trained and armed the mujahideen, some of whom would later go on to form the taliban?

Who was it that created the power vacuum in Iraq that allowed ISIS to rise from the ashes?

Who was it that backed and supported Pinochet and Marcos while they became dictators and mass murderers?

The largest number of migrants are from India. It is a secular democracy, though a flawed one.

We need a grown up, Europe-wide at least (preferably worldwide) discussion about immigration. With climate change and wars, it isn't going away any time soon. And at the same time, neither are the severe demographic issues facing all first world nations. The solution is not to go right-wing and isolationist, that's the very opposite of what we need to do.

Weighing it up against the effect on the climate of building all the additional structures we need to house people v not getting any economic growth if we are under-skilled and under-resourced.

Unless we also want another economic model which is not capitalism, and does not demand constant economic growth and consumerism.

Tax the fuck out of plutocrats I say, the top 0.1%, globally, so there is nowhere to hide their money. There is enough for everyone if they stop hoovering all the money and resources up.

I don't think bringing up the Moorish conquest or the Mongol invasion of Europe as examples of European racial diversity is particularly helpful. It just feeds into the "immigration == invasion" trope.

Also can we stop blaming Britain for all the world's ills? The Middle East is perfectly capable of fucking itself up without any outside help.

The rules, regulations and legal frameworks for refugees desparately needs to be updated. Much gnashing of teeth when Tories suggest amendment to or withdrawal from UNHCR, and ECHR which was based on the original framework, but times have changed since 1951, hugely, and the rights and responsibilites of nations need to be updated fit for the 21st century.

This is a key issue

I think our government need to stop spouting rubbish and should start recognising that we need immigration to staff our health and social care sector

Considering they've let 3/4 million people in I think they have

They've just announced a measure to say that if people come over to work for the NHS they can't bring family members here and settle.

Massive fucking help that is then.

No, that is unreasonable. You cannot plead ignorance and say I only wish to focus on what's happened in the last x years. So my teenager should base everything on the 17 years of his life? Surely you can see the flaw in that?

I am genuinely terrified for my dcs future. My biggest fear is housing. If our population is going to grow by 1% every year...where are people going to live? The private rental market is horrendous. Even with a decent job, you can't rent a one bed flat in suburban London as a single person. Our lives and standard of living are getting progressively worse.

I think most people are fine with immigrants who are productive and respectful. The issue is with when they see their home country or their own values disrespected.
Integration and cohesion are an afterthought to the government, that’s what causes the problems, particularly if you’re letting people with medieval religious or social beliefs into a country where eg. Our women have equal rights and we have (thankfully) left behind a time when religion was forced on others.
I’m all for immigration. I’m not for being tutted at and overhearing from a group of Muslim males in the same BP petrol station shop that I should ‘cover up’ because I was in gym leggings and a big t-shirt after going to the gym and nipping in for milk.

Many people are not enjoying being told by angry minorities that their way of life is incorrect. People aren’t liking the crime and the ghettos that are appearing. People are sad for their country. That’s not bigotry.

I agree. Even now some remainers seem determined to simply paint everyone who voted for Brexit as racist, instead of trying to understand people’s actual motives (and I say this both as an immigrant and as someone who would have voted remain had I had the option to vote at the time).

Are you saying crime and ghettos are only from immigrants? I absolutely hope not as you are competely wrong

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/immigration-and-crime-evidence-for-the-uk-and-other-countries/

And the number of white builders that have leered at me with some downright disgusting sexual language- these are people with non medieval or religious beliefs, what do we say that to that then?

Who are we counting as immigrants here, people who haven’t naturalised or/and people who have naturalised but weren’t born here?

It’s this kind of shaming and pretending people are saying things they’re not that has allowed so much resentment and anger to fester, and only stymies sensible balanced debate.

In absolutely no other circumstance would the solution to social problems or any problems really, be “yeah it’s really bad so let’s add loads more strain to the problem that’s already there!”

Regarding mass immigration in the past - yes, of course this happened everywhere. But not usually peacefully where there was already a population. It's an inherently destabilizing situation.

There were places like the Roman Empire where there was significant movement within the empire, but that had quite a lot of empire-building, including at the cultural level, involved. The Romans were not shy about what they considered the superiority of Roman values.

That’s a good point. I think that’s generally a bit of an issue with people who would describe themselves as pro-immigration, but mainly see immigrants as work force to fill undesirable jobs.
I think it’s different with temporary work visa between countries with a similar standard of living - a friend of mine went to New Zealand on a work and travel visa during uni, with no aim to try and stay there.
On the other hand, I know several Ukrainians who are either planning to stay in the UK or have already moved on to places like the US.
Can’t blame them really - I just think it’s a bit naive to think that people from poorer countries just come over for a bit, work in jobs locals don’t want to do, and then happily go back home (and I realise that Ukrainians didn’t come over as economic migrants, but I think my point still stands).

And it's not like those from the Ukraine can really go home for the foreseeable is it? I don't blame them for making longer term plans.

Beth, that's unfair and inaccurate. I am not shaming anyone

My point is a cross section of any society- any will be flawed. There has to be balance in all things. All of the UK's problems are not caused by immigration.

what politicians need to do is to stop using immigration as an easy vote winner by egging on racist sentiments.

European countries need immigration, we need bigger workforces. the politicians need to admit this and work on meaningful positive policies that help immigrants settle into communities.

blaming immigrants is an easy out for failing social policies

Welfare states and uncontrolled immigration are not compatible so take your pick.

I think this is such an important point.

As I said, I’m not blaming them either.
I just think it’s important to see how people actually behave in real life, instead of just assuming that after spending some time in places like the UK they just happily go back when no longer needed.

People talk a lot about "uncontrolled immigration". I'm really curious to know what people understand by this.

Now that FOM is no longer a thing, the vast majority of migration into this country is controlled - irregular arrivals only account for a very small percentage of total immigration figures, so the vast majority of immigrants have been granted visas to come here because our government has determined that there is a net benefit to the UK in allowing them to be here. Now, you can argue all you like that the benefit calculation may have been wrong, but I don't see where the perception comes in that it is uncontrolled.

Is it simply that, when people say "uncontrolled", they actually just mean "too high for my liking"? Or is it that they have bought into the government's narrative about the UK being invaded by small boats, and they assume that irregular arrivals account for most of the net migration figures?