To think Europen governments need to respond to immigration?

[Finlesswonder]

So the Netherlands is going to have a far right government.
Sweden has moved to the right.
Finland has shut its borders.
Countries that have traditionally been liberal are hardening and irrespective of the many issues listed its to do with immigration.

Ireland has seen violent protests last night following a series of stabbings.
In the UK we obviously had Brexit.

I think governments need to start responding to voters feelings on immigration as if they don't we will continue to see a general slide to the right in Europe, when actually these countries aren't right wing: it feels like a single issue is distorting the entire political landscape?

I don't know, some countries have laws and ideals that as a woman I find abhorrent, I don't find that as a virtue to try and integrate into our society. Definitely a balance though as I agree a balance of cultures does improve the country imo.

DH and I are 1st gen and even we preferred more English areas. Not completely 100% English (encountered couple where we would NOT be welcome and couple which were quite shitholes with rubbish etc), but not ultra diverse. Where someone obviously recommend we should live, you know, cause we were immigrants. Lots of the very immigrant heavy areas look as bad as some pps described unfortunately.
Friendships groups were mainly immigrants though. Most lived in similar areas to us, slight mix, slight. It works better imho

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I personally would strongly disagree. I'm thinking of kids learning to get on with other cultures etc. They won't get that from a holiday.

Interested point about some homogeneous countries being happy ones. I saw that stat somewhere. I wonder if that's countries that have very "heavy" culture as in, traditions and customs, ethics and etiquette being still very heavily used and demanded. If that makes sense?

@TempestTost My grandparents escaped a war in which my Aunt died and they lost a lot of land, so they were most definitely oppressed. I had a student who was from that oppressing country and she said don’t you hate me, of course I did not. It is just ridiculous to have guilt for something you haven’t done and an ancestor did just like it would be crap of me to play the victim because the generation above me suffered. It’s very sad and the past needs to be acknowledged so the same mistakes are not made but instead everyone gets wrapped up in a tit for tat of who did what to who.

@MoonLife ah yes the leafy suburbs where some people think that by eating ethnic food it’s makes them better than others because they are so much more culturally sensitive.

I only ever lived in a very ethnically diverse place once and I didn’t like it. I had a white BF now DH and I remember being on a bus going down the Bristol road in Birmingham and a load of lads from my ethnic group were eyeing up DH really bad and I thought he was going to get a kicking for dating one of ‘their women’.

Well I am glad for this grown up thread and the diversity of views! But not much time for the shibboleth of diversity. It should be examined if we are to control borders as some want with positive choices being made as to who comes. This system, which replaced freedom of movement largely is going to value people and their backgrounds. It's innate to the result.

I have lived in London all my life. It is now more diverse than ever. Is it better? It is different.

As i said on another thread, Cleverly now seems to be having reservations about its effectiveness.

How does a Aus style policy work for Europe, the numbers in N.Africa waiting to come across the Med are huge.

Where would we send them, Rwanda is geared up for 500 people.

Yes this is my point because England and other parts of the UK were manners culture. You needed less law as people self regulate by common implicit standards. This makes for a more stable society. Is it less dynamic, probably. But overall more stable.

But the problem is some areas of start off diverse then one or more cultures becomes more prominent. Diversity and multi cultural doesn't always mean one shop per culture and the cultural split of residents is even. What often happens is a huge amount of one culture move to an area and a large number of the shops are for that culture and the people all speak their own language. And when this happens all the pro immigration people say "well of COURSE the immigrant people want to speak their own language and buy the food they're used to and celebrate their own religions and cultural things! Its important and essential they do this to keep their culture alive!" But yet if you are British you must not get upset that you are no longer able to speak English to your neighbours and your local shops are full of food you don't recognise. You're now meant to embrace the diversity or you're labelled racist or xenophobic.
The reason immigrants like being around people like themselves is the same reason British people like being around people like themselves. If you have no shared experiences it can become very isolating and you don't feel you are part of a community.

Cleverly ‘"The mission is to stop the boats. That's the promise to the British people. Never lose sight of the mission.

"There are multiple methods. Don't fixate on the methods. Focus on the mission."

I look forward to hearing how he will do it. Aus has fewer than that in offshore as they’re reached the aim.

Decades ago and no party will touch it. Watching people tie themselves in knots over this is bizarre. Whatever Aus did it will be needed more as we progress into more climate issues.

Climate issues is afaik still not recognised as aaylum claim internationally. Though it's being talked about since some islands are dissapearing and there is about to be few homeless nations. I think it's being sorted under disaster displacement atm

Also I am sorry but the fact is that immigration (depending on where it is and who) means a fair bit more competition for those affected. In the UK that has been typically those on lower incomes. I do not think you can tell them that a number of supermarkets or restaurants are enough to compensate. They see it absolutely differently and feel loss.

I don't think it makes them racists either. They just see it that way.

I say this as the kind of patronizing North London leftie champagne bibber who would be expected to be s diversity champion. But I see it affects people strongly who had relatively little to start, and for whom their community would have been strong if not all the compensation in the world for that. Wealth is not just money to some but people, comfort and predictability.

What about immigrants who are not particularly interested in learning about the ‘ways of being’ of the locals though? I’m not saying all immigrants are like this, but where I live I see plenty of examples where that seems to be the case.
Over all I also prefer living amongst people from different backgrounds and cultures, I’m an immigrant myself.
But there needs to be some kind of social cohesion, a sense of community.
That’s not always the case in areas with high numbers of immigrants, particularly when there are large groups from the same background who just stay among themselves.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/plight-of-journalist-living-in-28034594
not sure what the answer is. This gentleman is having to sleep in his Monclaer coat due threats as a Journalist in Qatar.

As some say , immigration have been the ones to step in to fill jobs as nurses, carers and fruit pickers. Probably because the people born here know they won't be getting paid enough so don't want to train or are leaving in droves.

It's not going to get better

We’re so far removed from 1951 convention now, although huge industries both legal and illegal depend on the set up so it won’t change without challenge

Plus media narrative selling us a version that reinforces it

And it might survive with your average profiteering and trafficking but with climate and extra volatility on top I say no chance

I appreciate that is a problem. I supoose it shouldn't be allowed to happen that communities can develop where English isn't needed. How that's done, i don't know though.

Please don't push the narrative that " people born here" don't want the jobs as they are lazy or selfish or uneducated or entitled. People will do anything as long as they are paid fairly and can afford an adequate standard of living. My father, now in his eighties, worked on an assembly line all his life, largely on the night shift. Do you think he enjoyed his work or felt a sense of accomplishment at the end of a very long day in a windowless environment breathing toxic fumes? Did he hell. But back in those days, working hard paid off and lead to your own home and well fed children and money for an annual family holiday. My point being, pay people fairly and the working classes " born here" will work because who wouldn't aspire to a greater quality of life! But no, keep on pushing the propaganda as only immigrants will do these jobs because " our own" are too lazy and work shy.

@bakebeans its sad, but he has exactly the same rights as a British citizen now. Lots of people of working age, with no major health issues or dependent children are homeless with no priority for housing. Hopefully the publicity might alert someone to offer him a room til he gets on his feet.

Please don't push the narrative that " people born here" don't want the jobs as they are lazy or selfish or uneducated or entitled.

When I worked in fast food I was laughed at for working there by some English lads who literally said they wouldn't do that job. These are the ones causing the narrative.

@MoonLife I don't recall that I have referred to people born here as lazy and uneducated?
have you had a look at the care homes and wards in the hospital lately? Do you not recall during covid, fruit pickers and many low labour jobs had an impact as many immigrants had returned home.
Many trained GP's are leaving the NHS to go abroad for better pay and conditions. Nurses are leaving in droves.

like your father, my father, grandfather, would work for an honest living . my mother in the eighties worked 3 jobs whilst running a home. I have. worked 2 jobs whilst at university.
unfortunately, not everyone will.

Yes, I don't disbelieve you - I can well imagine that happening . But you've missed my point, life wasn't always that way here - people used to work the crappy jobs because they paid a decent wage which could afford you your own home. Life changed and wages didn't rise with the cost of living, so people couldn't afford to work these jobs as they wouldn't cover even the rent on a 1 bed flat, let alone support a family. So cheap immigrant labour became a thing and HMOs sprung up, because the cost of rent and utilities could be spread across a group making life grim, but affordable. I take issue with the people are " lazy" here rhetoric and don't want to do these jobs because it's false and untrue largely. They simply can't afford to in many cases. I see exploitation on all levels.

DH and I are 1st gen and even we preferred more English areas. Not completely 100% English (encountered couple where we would NOT be welcome and couple which were quite shitholes with rubbish etc), but not ultra diverse.

I can totally relate to this.
I think there are diverse areas that feel vibrant and welcoming, while others might seem like an entirely different country - and not necessarily in a good way.
I have both English and immigrant friends. Interestingly, the immigrant ones have a much more positive outlook on the UK, its culture and traditions than some (presumably) English posters here on MN.

Life changed and wages didn't rise with the cost of living, so people couldn't afford to work these jobs as they wouldn't cover even the rent on a 1 bed flat, let alone support a family.

What jobs are they doing? We have shortages of workers everywhere and we keep importing workers, so what better paid jobs are the the people who cannot afford to do 'immigrant' level paid jobs doing?

Well said.

How will the British economy grow without 150k skilled visa immigrants per year?

How many posters agree that it's fine to let universities collapse if they can't have 600k new foreign students each year?

If UK medical schools lower their entry requirements for domestic applicants, so supposing applicants could get onto a medical course with ABB at A-level, and clinical placements become very scarce or overcrowded or limited in duration, and annual medical school exams became easier, then UK could generate all of its own doctors. Are we all happy with medicine being a much easier degree for people to qualify for?

If medicine is much easier then I guess all the STEM courses could be easier to get onto & stay on, at Uni. Are the anti-immigrant folk all happy with that?

If the cascading down the system to make every job easier happens, who is going to be agricultural or social care worker ? Would we start importing lots of people for those purposes, maybe have Singapore style foreign worker dormitories for them?