To think Europen governments need to respond to immigration?

[Finlesswonder]

So the Netherlands is going to have a far right government.
Sweden has moved to the right.
Finland has shut its borders.
Countries that have traditionally been liberal are hardening and irrespective of the many issues listed its to do with immigration.

Ireland has seen violent protests last night following a series of stabbings.
In the UK we obviously had Brexit.

I think governments need to start responding to voters feelings on immigration as if they don't we will continue to see a general slide to the right in Europe, when actually these countries aren't right wing: it feels like a single issue is distorting the entire political landscape?

I voted remain (and was incredibly pro it) but increased climate and migration pressures have become more of a factor and will continue to

An Aus system could be better matched due to changes that will happen

The houses are hmos, crime is everywhere, the streets are litter strewn and filthy...It's dangerous. All around There is division. I don't see harmony and different communities mixing. No one knows their neighbours. The council might wheel out the annual mela as a display of the diversity in the area, but it's smoke and mirrors, it has zero impact on unifying people.

My parents lived somewhere like that a few years ago. It never used to be though. It was a very typical terraced London street when my parents bought the house in the 70s. Over time they knew all their neighbours. Would chat to everyone in the street. People helped each other. The kids played out. People looked after their houses and gardens.
Fast forward 40 years and you wouldn't recognise it. They were one of the last long standing residents when they finally moved. They had 1 HMO directly next door, 2 across the road and 1 more 3 doors down. That one also had a "back garden shed" which more people lived in. And I'm sure many others did as well. At least one of the houses constantly burned builders waste in the garden causing huge amounts of fumes. The front garden of their direct neighbour was a total and utter shit tip. Mounds of rubbish and waste which would start spilling into my parents garden. Most of their neighbours didn't speak any English so they couldn't even talk to them about it. And the ones that did just either told them to fuck off or laughed. Even if my parents just wanted to chat, a group of young men drinking outside their house have no interest in having a chat with 2 elderly people. These men would also piss where they were gathered in the street. I was so glad when they finally moved.
But this is often the reality of high immigration numbers. My parents couldn't have cared less where someone was from. But the reality is a lot of the time people do not wish to integrate and especially when surrounded by people from their own culture they will socialise and mix with them only.
People will say HMOs are part of the problem as its horrible for the people living in them. Yes I agree. But there quite honestly isn't the housing or the space for every single local person and immigrant to have their own lovely 2 bedroom house in a nice area with good transport and shops etc.
And there's no point saying well flats are an option as well because they become the same as the HMOs. Where I live in London they built a lovely block of flats (only about 6 levels not a huge tower block). It started off with lovely flower beds along the walls outside etc. Beautifully painted gates to the entrance to the car park and bin area. It houses mainly families. Now I have no idea of the nationality of the people living there but they are definitely of mixed cultures. But the fact still is after 5 years its a total dump. The piles of rubbish and shopping trollies that line the street outside. The flower beds have been destroyed and are full of cigarette ends and rubbish. The nice gates are broken and smashed and are covered in graffiti. Even inside the main entrance and stairway there's piles of rubbish inside (it's glass so you can see inside).
Anyway my point is there is huge numbers of the population including immigrants that have zero interest in integrating and living in a nice community. And mass immigration does nothing to help things. Especially when you have a mix of cultures. It rarely works well.

@bombastix

Yes, agreed, and the expectation when they were born was that they wouldn't live as long as they did. My grandfather, born 1936, was a blue collar worker who had a pension from 50 because people were generally in very poor health if they had done 35 years on an assembly line in hot and dirty conditions. He would, when he began work, have been expected to live another 10 years. He actually lived until 73 and he died in an accident but was healthy at that point - his widow drew a pension until 90. It is hard to believe now that people accepted (had to accept) not so long ago that work might shorten their lives, perhaps considerably. It is a good thing that health outcomes have improved so much and that attitudes have changed BUT if we are expecting young people to start working full time a full 5 years later than that generation and to live 20 years younger we need to really think about how we make that work.

Immigration is not the blanket solution to that demographic issue long-term, because those people also get old too. And few will return to countries with a lesser safety net.

It's tough. People who wanted Brexit were probably not really aware of the political motivations behind it. If they had been they might have realised that the consequences were going to be migration increasing from non EU countries, and given the productivity issues, a decline in social provision.

Britain will be more diverse, not less, as a result.

Some people were aware and voted with that in mind

AI and climate change

Immigration figures will go down for workers and up for non visa related

It’s worth considering next five years or ten when putting in place immigration policies now

@Dwappy Sounds depressingly familiar. Yet there'll be some people on MN who will still - with a straight face - say that somehow that situation was your parents fault.

@Sauerkrautsandwich - oh yes for some it was the point. Britannia Unchained and all that.

There was a lot of care about more money for the NHS etc. When you looked at the people funding the leave campaign that seemed ridiculous as an idea.

I don’t think we would (or should) switch to the same approach either.
I do wonder though - wouldn’t that approach actually be the other side of the ‘we need immigration to sustain our economy’ argument?
Because in that case it’s not just any immigrants you would need, but specifically economically active ones. So ideally qualified, young, healthy, without dependents.
What happens if someone loses their job though and struggles to find another? Or gets longterm sick? Or wants to bring their partner with them, even though the partner doesn’t have the right skillset for the local job market or wants to be a stay-at-home parent?
I mean, you either see people as human resources to prop up the local economy and send them away when they can’t contribute, or you take a more humane approach and end up with more workers, but also with their potentially economically inactive dependents.

Or additionally, there were other voters who did not like the fact that EU citizens were given greater rights than say those coming from Commonwealth countries or parts of former colonies. I think that particular issue is yet to fully unwind.

Some of the thinking around Britain post Brexit is weird; the thinking of the 1940s, an "Anglosphere" (which is often code for white immigration from Canada or Australia or NZ).

It all ignores that actually most of what might be said to be the Anglosphere is better off than us in terms of living standards.

A better take is that the UK is that our population growth will come from India, Pakistan and the Philippines. If you look at the migration figures by country that will be there already.

Some rights @bombastix . Like voting was not one of them.

Quite. It was a perception but I think one that was important in terms of the result.

Brexit was just immigration and borders

The UK may get to where Aus is but it’s a shift many will fight against

Pressure will increase in only one direction though. Towards more control. Look at politics in EU it’s already happening.

It's important also to realize that the UK has fallen behind its comparative competitors. We have very feeble growth, though we do have some, it's just that, compared to twenty years ago, it's not as good. If the UK were in a race, it would running at the same speed while other countries have got faster, improved their services and increased their investment in their society both in public and private sectors. We haven't done that and it shows. But getting in cheaper labour via immigration is a good sticking plaster. If you are a well off person who doesn't rely on public services, why do you care? It's not going to affect you. Brexit has just moved the source of migration, and arguably made greater incentives for people to stay.

All those who voted for the idea that there would be better pay and an implicit return to a kind of working class aristocracy have been thoroughly gripped. It's more competitive, not less.

Thank you for sharing your parents experience, I recognise it all. I don't know how else to get through to blinkered groups sat in their leafy suburbs that THIS is the reality of high immigration. It's laughable when I hear posters on here looking to move to ' diverse' areas and someone mentions an inner city suburb might be the answer where 50 odd cultures live cheek to jowl; oh no they couldn't possibly live there, the schools are not up to par or the nearest Waitrose is 10 miles away.!... I'm reality, they want a sanitised version of diversity minus all the gritty bits.

Diversity in of itself isn't a virtue though people will tell you so. More homogenous societies tend to be happier and more stable.

Diversity is good for business. That is not necessarily the same as good for people.

Brexit was just immigration and borders
And many didn't even understand which immigration.

There were some unbelievable moments about this. One hour BBC has a guy on a street talking about how he will vote Brexit so less Asians come in, another hour there is South East Asian business owner talking about how he will vote for Brexit because it will mean more visa allowance for South East Asians.
Unbelievable times....
I don't know how that first reporter kept professionalism on like that.

I live part time in a small city, in a neighbourhood that is about 40% 1st gentn immigrants (I'm guessing). There are countless Euro-supermarkets within walking distance, plus countless Turkish cafes, barbershops, Halal shops. there's a street of mostly Kurdish, I suspect. It's very noticeable when I actually hear English being spoken, and even then it's probably with a foreign accent. last week (for complicated reasons) I spoke to a lot of Polish people, plus some Lithuanians. There's a bench with gypsy-looking people always parked on it (colourful, cheerful) in the city centre. I look forward to seeing them.

I think I count as 'welcoming' mass immigration by the standards of this thread. I am an immigrant myself... I don't know about tensions. I'm not aware of any yet. It seems like the "White indigenous" people moved away, and this area so it became where the immigrants could afford to live. the little supermarkets thrive partly because the immigrants lack cars to get to out of town Asda. Everyone made their choices.

25% in Holland voted for the far right Wilders, he may not even be in Govt if the other parties form their own coalition.

What i'd like to know is how countries in Europe should deal with 100s of '000s of migrants sailing across the Med?

Should we sink them? not rescue when boat sinks as we try to turn around? & send back to Libya/Tunisia

Should we tow back to France and risk an almost certain diplomatic incident, even possible conflict with French Navy.

People come out with the "we should be like Aus" totally ignoring the fact we don't have large empty Islands off our coastline, face far higher numbers.

Of course it is! It absolutely is! There are so many benefits to being exposed to other cultures and beliefs, it broadens horizens and widens one perspective. I can't see any benefit whatsoever in having a closed society. It's limiting tbh. Everyone needs to learn about other ways of being, and to know that people can rub along with the other quite nicely. It's one of my favourite things about my childs school tbh, it not a religious one, so it gets lots of different people. I love that she gets that exposure, i think it's really important.

We can be ‘’more like Aus’

It’s people working pretty hard not to get similar set up, god knows why

Personally I prefer diversity where I live, I’m not going to move anywhere else, I also know I have a pleasant experience and others may not which is valid

But I can still see where we’re headed and the lack of ability to look forward a few years is incredible, feels bizarre to me and will end up resulting in massive issues

I don't believe diversity where you live is always a good thing. We broaden our horizons and get fresh perspectives through travel.

Presumably when people visit Japan say, they go hoping not to eat at Italian restaurants or spend time in Irish pubs, right?

I'm not so blinkered to recognise that other people have different and far more pleasant experiences, for that would make me a hypocrite! But the devil may lie in the detail as they say. You say yours is a small city and you are only resident on a part time basis- I wonder if that has something to do with it? Just musing.

@Chickenkeev - that is a personal preference. Diversity of opinions or thought may be useful to a society.

But simple diversity, without any thought as to what sort of society you might want? No. That is imo a fig leaf argument for business and migration overall.