To think that net immigration…

[Libertass]

Of 745,000 people a year isn’t what the 17 million people who voted for Brexit in 2016 thought they were voting for?

YABU = Yes, this is what Leave supporters voted for.

YANBI = No, they didn’t vote for this.

The result would be a disaster for the UK. The UK has too few younger people and too few skilled people to fill the vital jobs.

There would be too few people to work in healthcare (already over 100,000 vacancies in the NHS in England and a waiting list of over 7 million people).
Too few people to work in social and elderly care - another sector with hundreds of thousands of vacancies.
Too few young, fit people to work in agriculture and food production.
Too few bus drivers and lorry drivers, which is already a problem for the logistics and transport industries.
Too few construction and infrastructure workers - the UK's schools, hospitals and roads would continue to crumble.
Too few productive workers to earn money on which they pay taxes to finance public spending, and who spend their earnings in shops and other businesses which provide employment for others.
Too few productive workers for the factories and businesses that need them, resulting in these moving their investments abroad - in turn reducing the amount of tax paid to the Treasury.

Perhaps we could utilise the people already here. Why haven't we done this in the first place

Also the more people there are the more services you need

But its not working, we have record high migration, from countries (post brexit) with differing cultures and religions, yet UK still has huge labour shortages, massive nhs waiting lists.

So by your own argument, migration shouldn't be curbed, it should increase and by a lot too.

I think integration of migrants is vital & i'm not convinced our Govt has given this any thought what so ever.

"But its not working, we have record high migration, from countries (post brexit) with differing cultures and religions, yet UK still has huge labour shortages, massive nhs waiting lists."

Those opposed to Brexit pointed out at the time of the referendum that the UK needed the EU workers who were allegedly "taking all the jobs" and the misleading claim that once these all went home there would be jobs available for everyone. Certain sectors of UK industries and services need a mobile, flexible workforce and the EU workers to a large extent provided this. Now that they have gone, to the surprise of many on this thread, the jobs still need to be done and people have to be recruited from abroad to do them. Only now these immigrants are at the mercy of "agents" and the employers that use these agents, and instead of going back home if there is no more work, or when conditions turn out to be far from what they were promised, these unfortunate people are in debt to the "agents" and have to work under awful conditions to pay the debt off. Unlike for the workers from Poland or Bulgaria, there is no £40 Ryanair flight back to Chile or Vietnam.

So by your own argument, migration shouldn't be curbed, it should increase and by a lot too.

I've not said this. Migration is necessary to fill the immediate gaps in the labour market. As was seen straight after Brexit, crops had to be left in the fields because there was nobody to harvest, process and deliver the food. Petrol was in short supply because there were too few tanker drivers - a situation that has been improved by recruiting and training bin-lorry drivers and bus drivers, with the result that there now are too few of these.

The longer-term solutions include training more of the current population to do these jobs, offering better wages and conditions, not penalising people who take seasonal work (currently they risk losing benefits when they sign on after the season ends), more automation and generally having a plan that includes acknowledging that immigration is necessary. This is regardless of whether the shortage area is fruit pickers or doctors.

And on the subject of the shortage of doctors and other medical staff, perhaps someone should ask Hunt why he pissed off the junior doctors to the extent that thousands of them left the UK for Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Or why he failed to budget for the necessary hospital repairs and equipment upgrades. Or why there was no long-term resource plan during the six years that he was Health Secretary.

The other alternative is that the UK population is forced to accept declining standards of service and higher prices, collapsing public services and a falling standard of living - which for many parts of the country is exactly what has been happening for the last decade.

No, it won't . You have millions out of work or in part time employment.

What's needed is proper paid jobs, not zero hour contract that tie up people waiting for a call, doing their 16 hours a week and relying on state top ups.

You can't keep importing people, they get old as well and they bring over their elderly relatives, and so all you get is a pyramid scheme, which will topple.

Elderly men cost 7x that of a 30 year old
More people are living longer: how much will it cost? | ICAEW

Won't the young men we import now get old? Or are they going to cost less?

At least 1/3 are students, lots from China, they pay huge international student fees, sometimes 30k a year for degrees so contribute to our GDP. From the Office for National Statistics (ONS)

• For the year ending (YE) June 2023, net migration of international students who initially arrived in the UK on a study-related visa was 263,000; this includes those who transitioned onto a different visa type during their time in the UK.

I agree generally. People should listen to the director of an institute for population aging

AI / tech will charge what we need.

It will fall

I’d let universities continue with o/s fees though

Many Universities are now very reliant on that overseas income from international students because tuition rates have been frozen for home students (so in effect the home students are now being subsidised by the international students).

International students are desperately needed in the UK (higher education is actually one of the few areas that the UK is world class) but they do have to add controls to the number of dependents those students can bring in. I am not convinced that it will hurt the sector if the control the number of dependents coming (limiting them to Ph. Ds for example).

The influx of students does create significant housing pressures in University cities and towns though. There is just not enough purpose built student accommodation to cater to all of them which causes rental prices to go up a lot (see Edinburgh and Glasgow). This then has negative effects on the locals who end up getting priced out of the area.

"You have millions out of work or in part time employment.

But the "millions out of work or in part time employment" either don't have the skills needed for the vacancies, or are not located in the places where the work is.

For example, agricultural work is seasonal and requires a level of fitness that not everyone has and takes place in rural communities. There are not thousands of people sitting around in Lincolnshire waiting for the crops to ripen - so labour has to be imported from somewhere. Either it comes from the pool of unemployed in the UK, or these people have to be recruited abroad, which is exactly what has been happening for at least the last 100 years.

What's needed is proper paid jobs, not zero hour contract that tie up people waiting for a call, doing their 16 hours a week and relying on state top ups."

Not going to disagree with this, but it has little to do with immigration. If British workers are not happy with this situation, why are they not doing the jobs that the immigrants are willing to do (even if this requires relocation) - and at a political level, why are they voting for politicians who support zero-hours contracts and who want to use the UK's departure from the EU to weaken employee rights?

You can't keep importing people, they get old as well and they bring over their elderly relatives, and so all you get is a pyramid scheme, which will topple.

Many of the foreign workers go home after a few years, or even just after a season or two if they are in seasonal jobs. Immigration, particularly for employment or study, is fluid. People come and go, to be replaced by other newcomers. Those who stay will have contributed to society through their work, will have paid their taxes and national insurance - i.e. kept their side of the social contract - so why should they not stay and enjoy the same conditions as everyone else? The "elderly relatives" trope is just uninformed nonsense.

There is a good bit of stats out there today on x/twitter care of sky and ONS

the growth started AFTER brexit (under David Cameron) dropped with Covid, then massively increased once restrictions lifted, and Brexit came into effect along with new migration rules ironically.

Biggest majority are students- Brexit opened up restrictions on foreign students. Apparently it’s good for our economy as they pay fees. Not sure the impact on NHS, and other public funding like housing has been fully thought through though . But hey, that’s government- don’t do planning and risk assessment well. Bit of care crash to allow all these 100,000 additional overseas students in while NHS still recovering form Covid. 🤷🏼‍♀️🤦‍♀️

second biggest group is working visa- overwhelmingly in care and nursing. But vast majority are skilled workers. To fill all the gaps left my Eu workers here , the impact of Covid, and droves of people leaving nhs becuase of piss poor working conditions that clapping didn’t fix

There are large groups of Ukrainian and surprisingly, Hong Kong migration. Hong Kong was news to me and certainly not something you hear Suella braverman talking about. Don’t know what’s driving that

”illegal” immigrants, ones coming over in boats etc, that we used to call “refugees” are a small proportion (6.66%) , that actually hasn’t gone up that much. We’ve always taken refugees whether it was Vietnam, Kenya, Uganda , urkraine etc. until it got to Muslims post 9/11. But goes in waves over decades depending on where conflict is. Ukraine and Hong Kong migration far outweigh this group- don’t suppose many folks realise that listening to all the words the government spews forth

So, stopping boats will have no effect. That’s a tiny amount of that 6.66%.

But, making the NHS and care working a desirable job, with good pay and working conditions, with thos3 going into it not being burden with student loans, will actually do more than boats, Rawanda or any other amount of propaganda being sold to Tory voters and the ill informed.

Oldest trick in book for failing ruling class- invent an enemy you can all hate and rally behind that flag.

https://news.sky.com/video/migration-rise-what-do-the-numbers-tell-us-13014552

"Elderly men cost 7x that of a 30 year old"

The report states that treating men over the age of 85 "costs" the NHS £7,000 per patient a year on average. That the average 30 year old only "costs" £1,000 a year is surely no surprise. The number of men aged over 85 is less than 500,000.

Everybody gets old (if they are lucky). The younger people on here who seem to be making a point by posting this information need to consider who built the houses that they live in? Who built the roads, railways, schools and infrastructure that they use on a daily basis. Who earned the wealth that paid for the facilities and services that the 30 year olds now enjoy?

And on a rather obvious biological level, had it not been for the "elderly men" there would be no 30 year olds.

For those talking agricultural jobs like rOP pickers being jobs for uk citizens if they paid well or had better conditions.

Nope.
Not how crops grow.

picking crops is seasonal, people have to go with the seasons. It doesn’t work with people who want to own their own home, have children that can be schooled, people who need regular medical assistance etc

This has always been an itinerant work force. Prior to crop pickers coming in form Europe and other countries, farm workers could literally starve during winter, or as a consequence to crop failure. The rise of cheap long distance transportation to take these workers to countries and counties as crops were ready for picking, massively improved their lot. And it’s not a lot of lot.

it is also a highly skilled trade. People specialise in certain crops . It’s a job for people who have developed physical fitness in certain places to prtec5 themselves from back breaking, feet breaking, uncomfortable work. And it’s not conducive with getting old.

farmers have tried hiring random uk workers where workers are pressurised to do the jobs. . Workers can’t travel due to it not being a life style they are geared up to, having families. Schools tying the, to a single place. People haven’t developed the physical attributes to do work , in way that a young person starting in a family background of filed work would do and expect. The workers are slow, messy, leading to food waste, lost time, and not making the money they might due to lack of quota filling for daily rates.

jeez, I take my hat off to them. But why do people keep pushing this myth that Joe or Jane blogs out of work can do this job ?

similarly forcing people into care working. My dad (87) in a care home now after bing looked after in psychiatric hospitals for last 9 months while they stabilised him . He is highly disturbed. I don’t want someone who doesn’t want to do care with a passion washing him, helping him to the loo, wiping his bum, etc. it’s a bad enough job for those that do have that vocation, given the pay, but only certain people have the temperament. I saw some less than caring care workers whilst he was in various hospitals, along with a few that had clearly little capacity to take initiatives, and do anything much than sit around listening to radio or watching tv themselves, not engaging with patients at all.

Do not put the frail and vulnerable in the front line of a policy of “make them do the shit low paid jobs”. . Make that job, good enough and valued, that anyone with such a vocation would be proud to go into- other countries do this,

why is it we pay dustbin operatives more than average care worker?

@Appleofmyeye2023 absolutely- and in my view 'if' immigration was a big driver for some people voting Brexit (and I personally think it was) then they were sadly misled. All that's happened is those EU folks being replaced by those from developing countries, lesser trained in lots of cases (that comes from uk trained NHSstaff by the way- not me) and in the meantime we have lost all our rights the other way round.

But the "millions out of work or in part time employment" either don't have the skills needed for the vacancies, or are not located in the places where the work is.

No one is born with skills they need on life. People always have the option to move to re-train.

Not going to disagree with this, but it has little to do with immigration. If British workers are not happy with this situation, why are they not doing the jobs that the immigrants are willing to do (even if this requires relocation) - and at a political level, why are they voting for politicians who support zero-hours contracts and who want to use the UK's departure from the EU to weaken employee rights?

Why should they vote for someone else? Their income is topped up by benefits.

Many of the foreign workers go home after a few years, or even just after a season or two if they are in seasonal jobs. Immigration, particularly for employment or study, is fluid. People come and go, to be replaced by other newcomers. Those who stay will have contributed to society through their work, will have paid their taxes and national insurance - i.e. kept their side of the social contract - so why should they not stay and enjoy the same conditions as everyone else? The "elderly relatives" trope is just uninformed nonsense.

Everybody brings their family. Students will be banned from doing this in the future, the EUSS gives anyone with a SS the option to bring family here.

Many of the foreign workers go home after a few years, or even just after a season or two if they are in seasonal jobs. Immigration, particularly for employment or study, is fluid. People come and go, to be replaced by other newcomers. Those who stay will have contributed to society through their work, will have paid their taxes and national insurance - i.e. kept their side of the social contract - so why should they not stay and enjoy the same conditions as everyone else? The "elderly relatives" trope is just uninformed nonsense

Everybody brings their family. Students will be banned from doing this in the future, the EUSS gives anyone with a SS the option to bring family here

Quite why a student or a worker who is here for a very short time is then entitled to stay, is quite a mystery to me, that basically makes having any sort of visa pointless, just work/study for 1 or 2 years and you can stay, invite your extended family in too, you ve earned it!!!

@ChardonnaysBeastlyCat "Everybody brings their family"

Who do you mean by "everybody?"

The young guys from Europe, India and Africa that I've met and worked with over the years did not bring their families. Nor did the young (and older) European women working in care homes and in hospitality. They came for a year or two to earn some money, experience life in another country and then return home. Most did not have a "family" to bring with them, being mostly young and single. The living conditions of many of the agricultural workers are often barely suitable for the workers themselves, never mind their families.

The nurses and junior medical staff being recruited from the Philippines and elsewhere are not allowed to bring dependents - many of these women don't see their families or children for the duration of their contracts.

There are large groups of Ukrainian and surprisingly, Hong Kong migration. Hong Kong was news to me and certainly not something you hear Suella braverman talking about. Don’t know what’s driving that

The current government decided that 3million BNO passport holders and their descendants could move to the UK on if they fancy it. Apparantly Warrington is very popular with them, and also Milton Keynes. No idea why.

To be fair: people voted to end freedom of movement between Britain and mainland Europe, and they voted against the idea of a European army (which was then being discussed) and against the EU’s founding ideal of “ever closer integration towards a United States of Western Europe” they didn’t vote for the incompetent ‘hard’ Brexit that Boris Johnson forced upon us to enrich his mates and their companies.

Brexit was inevitable from the moment the EU let Bulgaria join and gave them freedom of movement to the UK despite Bulgaria’s organised crime problems. That decision was directly responsible for many burglaries in my town, according to local police. And we noticed it!

I voted remain because I didn’t wanna be on the same team as Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, and I wanted to be optimistic about the world’s biggest ever peacetime project, but even I could see at the time a lot of reasonable arguments for leaving the EU. Many of those threads will still be on Mumsnet, there were some fascinating discussions at the time, I remember particularly there was a lot of concern about Turkey joining which would mean the EU would suddenly border Syria, Iran, Iraq, Georgia…

I know loads of people who’ve moved to England from Hong Kong this year. Those I have met are all very wealthy families fleeing the nasty political situation that’s happening in Hong Kong. A lady told me that her teenagers had been brought up to believe in democracy and that Hong Kong was not repressive and corrupt like mainland China, but now the Chinese authorities are clamping down on freedoms and police are beating up teenagers who protest. Parents of teens who can afford to come to Britain are doing so. Those who don’t want to move house are sending their children to boarding schools in the UK. On school told me he could fill his school three times over with applicants from China if he wanted to.

If it helps they are bringing huge amounts of money into the country in school fees and taxes etc.

2023 saw the first decrease for ten years in the number of Chinese students starting undergraduate courses in the UK.

Additionally my understanding is that demand for UK schooling in China is falling, but rising from HK.
This reflects in part decisions by the Chinese government to prioritise jobs for those who are educated in China and a very small number of international universities.

Absolutely this

@Havanananana that's not what I have seen recently with my own eyes. There are whole families with both partners plus quite a lot of children going in and out of the face to face processing centres every day- hundreds of them - and this isn't London . ( I had a desk in a centre that had a company there doing this) in the past I would agree that it was lots of single people, it clearly hasn't been for the last 18 months- although I believe some rules are changing.

"There are whole families with both partners plus quite a lot of children going in and out of the face to face processing centres every day"

Do you know where these people are from though, and what their status is?

Are they from Ukraine and therefore refugees? Are they Hong Kong citizens relocating to the UK under the settlement laws? Are they students from overseas coming for 2-3 years? Are they key workers arriving with their families to undertake fixed-term work contracts?

All of these "immigrants" are legal. The four categories have different reasons for coming. The last two categories are coming for a fixed period and will most likely leave again, taking their families with them.

One of the unfortunate issues with this thread, and the ongoing debate about immigration, is the tendency to generalise and assume that all "immigrants" are the same.