'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

I have known that situation. It's usually because the SAHM is terrified that her husband will choose a working co-worker over her. She needs to try to convince herself that she, as SAHM, is so much better.

You forgot about the bullshit bit where they "gave up their career to facilitate their husbands career".

This division annoys me so much

I encountered it first of all when my child started school five years ago. I have always worked from home because I am successful in my career. Because of this I was able to move to a nice village

I got so many digs and comments about how they work and their lives are hard

They had no idea I work till midnight to pick kids up from school

Their cognitive dissonance couldn't realise that the fact their job allowed them to do pick up meant others worked too

It still happens

I just don't care any more the one who accused me most let her mum pat for her kid to go to private school

This is not me by a long mile but in some circumstances free childcare to let the other half work honestly can't be underestimated. I've seen it happen a lot'

B saying that she does all that A does and work FT is negative in my view. She isn't saying that they both focus their time and energy on different things or that the families function differently, she is saying she is capable of doing exactly the same as A in much less time. My point is that she isn't doing the exact same and I feel that it's undermining and insulting to A to suggest that she is. It implies B is somehow super human and capable of doing everything twice as quickly as A or that A is lazy or incapable. Neither is true.

I admire both A and B to be honest. The nature of this thread means I have found myself listing all the great things that A does that B doesn't, but B is absolutely amazing too. She is fantastic at her job, makes a real difference with her work and is a great mum. Her children are happy and healthy and she has a lovely home. As I find myself working more, my respect for B grows as I see that she is balancing things brilliantly and that part of this is understanding you can't do it all and you don't necessarily need to either. That's why it's strange that although she is xeemingly really good at prioritising and letting the right things slide, she doesn't seem to acknowledge that this is what she has done and there will be some stuff that just doesn't get done as a result of this. I differ from her as I obviously can't do it all either but I am often acutely aware of what has been dropped in order to facilitate me doing other stuff.

B's house just simply isn't that clean or tidy. Nothing crazy, but normal household mess and things like the oven could do with a good clean and the shower screen could do with a bit of a scrub

But who cares about this really?

I can understand why B would think that areas where she is 'falling short' of A's performance are not of much importance in the overall scheme of things.

@Alana1983 No normal woman would be 'banging the drum' to her daughters about being a stay at home mother specifically in that guilt tripping tone you're describing - that's just your own prejudices talking.

The pressure on women is actually overwhelmingly the other way, so it's good their daughters would be hearing conversations to provide at least a little balance against the current societal propaganda in the West which is trying to devalue motherhood and give the impression women are only worthy if they're in the workforce (which is complete rubbish; there's arguably nothing more important than forming the next generation).

I've been working all my adult life in a field I need a high degree of education for, and currently still am in the workforce, but I'm not of more value than a mother forming the next generation who stays at home to do so. And who cares if they choose never to return to the workforce, this was the norm for many women for many generations and is still the norm now in many other countries/cultures.

My experience of having a working mother made me realise that I wouldn't want the same for my own children. I would want to stay at home to look after my kids, I'd be proud to do so, and I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks.

I've had my time already to happily prioritise my education and career which I've enjoyed and I want to spend the next stage of my life prioritising my children instead. I won't be brainwashed into thinking i have to "do it all" at the same time and i'd be encouraging any future daughter to put her and her family's wellbeing first and not empty societal mantras.

There's not enough hours in the day for anyone, whether you're a man or woman, to properly do it all, something or someone is always compromised, and I don't want that to be precious time with my kids while they're young. 🙂

As more and more women burn out trying to "do it all at the same time" and realise it's not ultimaely worth it, I expect the tide in time will actually swing back to more traditional gender roles in future generations down the line.

No man would ever be competitive about these things or say them, but they're all to happy to sit back and laugh at the women doing backflips for him while he does exactly what he wants to do.

@MightyMinestrone fabulous that you found what works for you

We're not all the same though. Many of us don't feel that we're 'superior' or 'naturally better' at being at home than our partners are, not that they are 'better' at having a career and earning. We like to raise our children while also working.

Ultimately what matters is raising children into happy, well adjusted, successful adults. I can't see anyone disagreeing with that! My 'babies' are now adults with their own partners, working lives and their own families. They're fabulous people and I'm proud that dh and I have raised them. And yes, we've both always been WOHP. No doubt our kids would also have grown into happy successful adults if dh or I hadn't worked too! It's not a case of one thing - either WOH or SAH being 'better' than the other!

In with friend B. Friend A 'work' sounds like busy work to me where she can personally affirm her reason for being and polish her perfect parent halo.

Who gives a toss if a kids badges are sewed on by hand by a mother with shiny hair and a serene look clad in a perfectly pressed frock over two hours or wonderwebbed in 10 seconds by a mother in her pants and bra in between ironing a work shirt. I know who is making best use of their time.

Or indeed it's delegated to another functional member of the household. When I was a Brownie I was expected to sew the fuckers on myself.

Slightly off the topic but I know of many Mums doing a B job and striving to be A (myself included!) and maybe not getting there but doing a great job of trying to achieve it!

Ive got a friend who is A and they are lovely but tell be how tired they are whenever they see me! I grit my teeth because no matter how tired I am, I’m also working a very busy day!

Maybe B is being unreasonable and not appreciating A and the effort she goes to but the effort required to be B is a lot! It’s exhausting!

i think it would be very easy to fill time as a SAHP, she’s only really free 9.10 to 3pm so cleaning, shopping, food prep, gardening, exercise, errands, seeing friends for socials, helping school or PTA.

I'm c (work part time) but can see that both are equally valid life style choices. It potentially boils down to different interests, stamina, resilience, values, cleanliness/tidiness levels,

One is not better then the other. They are just different.

@Wonderously exactly.

I really don't get why a minority of women see this issue in such a binary way, as a woman is only a SAHM if they don't like/ can't cope with working, or is only a WOHM if they couldn't cope with being at home.

Personally I've always worked, as has dh, and it's been great and we've raised our children into wonderful adults. I never found being at home with the children while on maternity leaves a chore or boring (can't say I'm so keen on housework or sewing on badges but hey ) I'm sure our kids would be equally fine if I or dh had stayed home too. But we both had good jobs, we were both equally skilled both in and out of the home and wanted to both do both!

I don't think the tide will turn to that honestly. I think more people will just not bother having kids. It's already happening.

Also, every good parent I know absolutely prioritises their children - they come first, whether the parent works or not. I love my job- it's stimulating and rewarding and pays me a good income and pension - but hell, of course my children are the most important thing. No compromise there.

Of course, if you're bad parents, you're bad parents whether one, both or neither of you has a job, hardly rocket science.

Different strokes for different folks. I too don't prioritise the same way as A so simply can't compete with half the stuff she does. The thread wasn't intended to be about whether A is doing 'worthwhile' stuff and how we assign value to different activities. I think it has morphed into that because many who agree with B would argue that the things A does in addition to B aren't really of any importance and therefore don't really count. As I have read more and more of these posts I guess I ponder why people are so keen to minimise A's additional activities to the point where they become almost invisible.

I guess I ponder why people are so keen to minimise A's additional activities to the point where they become almost invisible.

I suppose I've been one of those people on this thread - for me, I "minimise" them because I think most of the Friend As don't acknowledge that they do those things for themselves. [Well partly I was annoyed by your Higher Standards insistence but I think we've agreed to disagree on that now.]

The friends A claim, even maybe think, they do these activities for their family but their family don't get much, if any, direct benefit from them.

For example, having an immaculately tidy living room instead of a fairly tidy one but leaving the kids' train set out overnight - no one benefits from this except the SAHM herself, looking around with pride/comfort at her immaculate living room once the kids go to bed. The kids don't give a monkey's and if anything, would rather the train set was left how they liked it.

I know a SAHM who always tidies the toys from the living room each evening but she says herself, she does it for her own comfort. I respect that insight tbh.

Similarly the lavish meals: your friend A makes her own sourdough for the enjoyment of making the sourdough. The kids would get the same benefit from the local baker's sourdough.

but I'm not of more value than a mother forming the next generation who stays at home

What do you mean here? Yes I agree that morally a working mother is not necessarily a nicer person than a SAHM, but surely most jobs create some value? Otherwise they wouldn't exist, if there was really no difference if they are done or not.
My own mother has done something that has affected thousands of children, she has received numerous awards and recognitions for what she has done outside of home. How can this be nothing, just as same as if she was a lifelong SAHM?

Don't get me wrong, it's totally OK to do stuff for your own enjoyment/well being. Going to the gym, meditating, making sourdough, participating in the PTA, whatever.

But I don't call those things "contributions" as you call them.

Edit - I don't think you have used that word actually op, sorry! But others have

Because A appears to think these things they do have equal value and they just don't. Not to her family or to society. Fundamental disagreement I think.

I’ve been both and I enjoy working A LOT more.

I do race from thing to thing. I’m always only just on time. My meals aren’t particularly good, but the kids badges are sewn on by me. We have extra curriculars 7 days a week so my house is not a showroom standard, but social services wouldn’t condemn it. We muddle along and the first paragraph still stands.

@Walkaround

More parents working and more freedom to leave your partner have not improved the mental or physical health of our children as a society. So what lessons are our children learning? That it’s better not to have children at all?

Arguing that children benefit from their mothers having less agency within their relationships and within society is a dangerous road to go down.

The mental health crisis which has affected young people in recent years is very real but its absolutely not connected to women working. Women entering the workforce in large numbers predates that by a good 30-40 years. This is a recent phenomenon It's a combination of austerity and a crisis in education, turbo-charged by social media, COVID and other societal factors.

It's a terrible problem but you don't help children's physical or emotional wellbeing by forcing their mothers to become wholly reliant on one other adult or the state.

@Mummymummy89 exactly. Having an immaculate lounge rather than a reasonably tidy one, or spending an hour of the afternoon sewing badges on a brownie uniform rather than sewing them on after work make zero difference to the child. It may be that the mother prefers the former, but that's for her own satisfaction rather than for anyone else's and certainly doesn't make a jot of difference to wider society.

That's not a judgement whatsoever; simply stating facts.

You don’t help anyone’s wellbeing by pretending everyone doing paid work actually solves the problems you are addressing. Working parents are still reliant on each other, however their working lives are arranged, whether both working, only one, or neither (unless extremely wealthy) and the vast majority rely a lot on the state - for schools, healthcare, roads, social care, police, army, etc. It is farcical to pretend you can do everything all by yourself, or that anybody actually is. So getting a bit of perspective would be helpful, rather than a lot of silly women denigrating each other in thread after thread and then blaming that on men. Omen don’t need men to shit on each other’s lives and denigrate each other’s achievements.