'I do all these things AND work FT'

[Bumpitybumper]

I see this on Mumsnet a lot but have just experienced it in real life. I have two friends (A&B). Friend A is a SAHM to school age kids and Friend B works FT in quite a stressful job. Friend B was just lamenting that they don't understand how Friend A fills her time as she manages to work FT AND do everything Friend A does.

The thing is, Friend B has a much smaller (yet lovely) house that is pretty chaotic in fun energetic way. It is never the tidiest or cleanest but it's not disgusting either. Friend A on the other hand has a much bigger house that is pretty immaculate most of the time. Friend A does all the school runs and volunteers at school. Friend B needs wraparound care in order to get to work so drops her kids of at 8 and collects around 17:30. Friend A cooks amazing meals for her family, has her children's friends round for fun playdates and activities and is generally incredibly on top of everything. Friend B is understandably more stretched and isn't in the position to cook lavish meals every day of the week or have friends round when she's at work. Friend B's husband does a lot (of course absolutely fair and right) so she doesn't have to attend every parents evening, sew all the badges for extracurricular clubs or assist with all the homework etc. Friend A does pretty much all of that as husband works such long hours.

I actually think both are amazing and very productive people that channel their energy, time and talent in different channels. I just struggle to understand though how Friend B can't appreciate that she isn't doing the same as Friend A or at least doing it to the same standard. Before people suggest I'm Friend A, I have my own business so don't really fit in either camp but used to be a SAHM so I guess can see Friend A's efforts more.

AIBU to think that Friend B is a bit deluded?

I think Friend A and friend B will both have challenges throughout their life. I was the daughter of a SAHM. Times are tough financially now for DM, no real pension and utterly reliant on my DF for everything, she utterly regrets not going back to work. It’s interesting to see daughters of full time working Mums wanting to be a SAHM, I vowed I wouldn’t be financially dependent on anyone.
The point is at different points of their lives friend A and friend B will wish they had done something differently. You just have to make your choice and so what is right for you but do be mindful of the future. Children grow up and finances change. Try and keep your hand in at work even if it’s only a few hours a week. It could be a lifeline.

@SouthLondonMum22

No, it's mainly biological. Girls are wired this way in innumerable ways through physiology, genetics, hormones etc. It's why women are the ones who get pregnant, carry our babies, have breasts to breastfeed, babies bond with us in a special way when infants etc.

I know it's trendy and politically correct nowadays to pretend men and women are the exact same but they're just not. Pretending so is plain ignorance and foolishness. Biology doesn't care about anyone's politics. Women are specially designed to care for infants in a way men simply are not. You see endless examples across the natural world too with males vs females.

Yes of course men can and should be involved in supporting the mother, but the mother is the primary care giver and is how women are normally wired. It's a beautiful and unique part of femininity and for too long misogynistic people (especially misogynistic women pretending to.be feminists) like to try to trample on it and spew misogynistic rhetoric that essentially says women need be like men to have the same value as men.

Being nurturing is beautiful and doesn't make us inferior in any way to men, it's in fact the opposite; it's a lovely gift many women have and men learn from and the true tragedy is that it's not esteemed enough in current Western society because of all the toxic narratives that some people like to push that all that matters is being an anonymous working cog in an economic wheel. No we're people in families first and foremost. Both men and women should be loving and compassionate but each sex has its unique strengths and is why we naturally complement each other.

Yes of course there is brokeness, wounds, men/women who are different from the norm, plus women who don't have children (including myself) are no less feminine but we tend to show this natural feminine nurturing tendency in other beautiful ways.

Also, men who are providing for their families, ARE looking after their kids, they're just doing it in a different way. Men are wired to provide protection and material provision for the family. Father's still need to be emotionally involved too of course, and helping in other practical ways.

Exactly this! We should all be supportive of each other and the different choices we make.

“The longer you are away from your child and the more often they are under the influence of others, the more others are involved in the end result.”

Im not sure exactly why you said this in response to a post about the role of teachers?

The 1920s called looking for you.

You might need to get your own ‘wiring’ looked at. Someone seems to have set your dial to ‘dimwitted essentialism’.

Maybe read Cordelia Fine’s Delusions of Gender, if you can manage all the big words.

I have a question about this - what do people want for their daughters? As I wonder what message it sends to our daughters when we are stay at home mums and sewing all the badges on, and making all the meals from scratch and arranging play dates and attending every school event? That what? You're the perfect mother? what when your daughter grows up and becomes a mother herself but chooses as well to have a career, which takes her away from the home a lot? So imagine parent A raises her daughter to become parent B or imagine that her son marries parent B? Because if you read the 'men are from mars....' book which I did many years ago, it states that the misaligned misogyny comes from sons that were raised by SAHM in the 60s/70s who are now in relationships with working mothers but are expecting their wives/gf to step into the shoes of their mothers, you know, make the same choices and carry the majority of the work within the home etc etc and it's all about expectations

For some reason I think about this a lot, I wonder about the daughters of SAHM and wonder about the grandmothers to be who chose to stay at home with their own children and how they will feel if their own daughters make a different choice to them.

I think that there's an awful judgement between the two camps and what happens when the two camps clash close to home. Would a grandmother pity a grandchild whose mother chose to go to work and would a working mother feel less than a mother because her own mother or mother in law chose to be home.

The issues that this generation having within relationships whereby expectations are different - within my own relationship this is a factor as my partner was raised by a SAHM and has commented that he can't remember his Dad ever having to do this or that and I have to remind him that's because mum was at home and in our case we both work so parenting/household responsibility is equal - but I wonder if the next generation will have less issues such as this as many of them are being raised by 2 working parents where the roles are integrated?

If my own daughter wanted to be a SAHM I would worry about validation, self worth, her mental health. I'd worry if it were enough as I know it hasn't been for me - both periods of maternity I was kicking to get back and I adore my children but I love my job, my friends and the social aspect. I see friends that are SAHM and I worry that they're lonely, it's a relatively exclusive club nowadays and there aren't an endless supply of people to meet up with/socialise with as the children grow - it's hard to keep yourself busy - although I know some good examples of people who do. I see friends who've retired say I miss people. I miss friends and colleagues. It's quite isolating I feel. So I wouldn't want that for my daughter.

but I wonder if the daughters of SAHM will struggle to 'have it all' will they wrestle with guilt when they're too busy to sew the badges on....?

Yeah, my stance on this debate is that it’s a choice. As long as:

• someone isn’t being coerced into the ‘choice’ of being a SAHP by their partner;
• they have discussed the practicalities with the partner who’ll be financially supporting them and ensured it’s not going to put pressure on them - and to decide how labour and childcare will be divided;
• they have considered the consequences and What If scenarios where things might go pear shaped in future
• if deemed necessary, they put things in place to minimise any risks (eg marriage, private pension…)

… if someone still wants to be a SAHP, they should crack on. It’s none of my business either way of course but these are some of the things I’d ask myself before making the decision.

These views dear God.
Perhaps friend A has been at the pinnacle of her career already, used her qualifications many times over, has been a leader, manager, influenced, worked full time for decades with or without children and is now in a different season - where she’s a SAHP. Perhaps friend B wishes she were in friend A’s position hence the corrosive attitude and comments.

People should stay in their own lane and get on with their own life rather than being jealous of others. There are always pros and cons to anything!!

I have a question about this - what do people want for their daughters? As I wonder what message it sends to our daughters when we are stay at home mums and sewing all the badges on, and making all the meals from scratch and arranging play dates and attending every school event? That what? You're the perfect mother?

I can see why you might say this about a SAHM who doesn’t work until their children are teenagers, for instance, since they are capable of forming an opinion but I don’t think it’s fair if they’re a SAHP when their children are very young. Not sure babies give a damn about the example their mother sets, in the same way they won’t be offended about being in nursery for balance. Btw, I don’t mean to offend anyone who makes the decision to be long term SAHM. I think it’s noble enough, it goes without saying! Motherhood is tough and work is often seen as some respite from its trials and tribulations. 😂

Not sure in what way? I don’t understand people who pretend school is not part of your upbringing, and by extension, nursery, childminder, grandparents, etc. The fewer outside influences you let in, the more you are doing directly yourself, and this does have an effect on the outcome, positive or negative, or usually positive and negative. If you don’t approve of some external influences - eg nurseries, or schools, or even your own parents’ influence - you don’t actually have to let them get involved if you can afford not to. Home education is permitted, after all. Spending the entire summer holiday in the company of your children is permitted.

All most parents are trying to be is the best parent they can be, not the best parent someone else could be.

Parent A may well feel they would be a bad parent if they attempted to achieve what B achieves, because they would feel stressed all the time and as though they couldn’t do anything properly, and that they wouldn’t be able to hide this feeling of inadequacy from their children. That doesn’t mean they think parent B is a bad parent for being able to do it, it just means they are not B. Parent B may well think they would be a bad parent if they tried to do what A does, because they would be bored and frustrated and wouldn’t be able to hide that from their children. But they are not A, so it doesn’t matter - they don’t have to be like A and A does not have to be like B. But each parent’s choices and personality does affect their children’s upbringing.

I was Friend D. Shit at both.

Then I must be all broken and wired incorrectly because I just don't relate to any of this except that I obviously got pregnant.

I didn't breastfeed because I simply didn't want to
I'm not the primary carer
I love providing for DS financially
I'm not any more nurturing than DH is.

Their partners probably pay far more than you do in tax.

You must be a man. Sorry to break this to you, but there is only one possible conclusion.

What matters is raising happy, well adjusted children to become happy well adjusted adults. Which can be done by parents who work just as well as by parents who don't

I have a question about this - what do people want for their daughters? As I wonder what message it sends to our daughters when we are stay at home mums and sewing all the badges on, and making all the meals from scratch and arranging play dates and attending every school event? That what? You're the perfect mother?

This is a very outdated question. How many women are SAHM for life these days? Some women take time out when their kids are young, but the number of long term SAHM these days is pretty low ime. So the hologram SAHMs who always get a kicking on MN hardly exist.

As to what message SAHParenting sends - if I look at my generation of friends with mothers who stayed at home back in the 70s - they’re doctors, lawyers, bankers, tv producers, journalists, academics, writers, business owners - what do you make of that message?

I have a blended family of up to 6 children in the house of various ages work full-time in a demanding professional job and do plenty of the housework and running around after kids (DP is a senior teacher does his share but works long hours). If somebody tried to tell me that I wasn't "doing things to the same standard as a SAHM with an instaperfect house and home-cooked darn-tootin' grub prepared for her hard working hubby" I'd be telling them to get in the fucking bin to be honest.

Not sure what else to say.

Yes the example I was thinking of specifically is when children are at secondary school.

Also, I work full time but I take my child to school 5 days a week and collect him for 4, take him to after school clubs/actives on 3 and then work later at night when he's asleep to make up the time I take to do this

so I feel like I can say I do all of that and work...I'm not as attentive I'm sure and I'm willing to accept that, it's a sacrifice I know full well but what I think B meant is that the housework gets done, the laundry, all the jobs.

a friend of a friend used to get infuriated as she worked shifts and when she was on early shift her SAHM bestie would suggest lunch or shopping excursions and when she said no as she had errands to run or housework to do, the SAHM would express her frustration at her putting housework over socialising etc but the shift worker mum had less time in her week to do these jobs and wanted to pull them in whilst the kids were at school. They used to both complain to me about the others point of view and it was really was just that they were on different pages and couldn't see it from the other persons point of view. The SAHM was lonely and felt like her friends didn't make the effort for her and the working mother felt like she didn't have spare time regularly due to having so much on her plate and didn't prioritise socialising as her needs were met through workmates etc.

You must be a man. Sorry to break this to you, but there is only one possible conclusion.

great news! According to some posters here, I'm clearly a shit mum, farming my children out for strangers to raise while I selfishly pursue my career out of pure greed.

But without any actual change, I am now an amazing dad, looking after my children by providing for my family - and not only that, I even help with childcare and housework!

@G5000 nailed it!

I've been thinking about this since I just found out recently that my twins due in April are both girls.

I want them to be financially independent, I think that relying on anyone else financially is almost always a bad idea.

I want them to see that you can be a mother and have a career, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Of course, you also don't have to be a mother at all.

I want them to see that men can also cook, clean and do 'caring' roles.

I want them to grow up without saying 'help' in relation to parenting or housework if they choose to be married because they don't automatically think it is just their responsibility.

What I’d make of that message is that many of the children of these SAHP realised how many of their own mothers stayed in unhappy relationships because they couldn’t leave; thus the girls making damn sure they wouldn’t be in the same position themselves.

I was just going to say the same.

All of a sudden, I'm a hero because I have a penis and financially provide! 😂

This is a reason why as the daughter of a SAHM I have a career and would never be a SAHM myself.