To deliver a lesson in table manners?

[Mannersdomatter]

My partners child is 12 and just started high school (year 7).

I realised last week that she doesn’t know how to use cutlery. We went to a very nice expensive restaurant and she ate her entire meal, including broccoli, with her fingers. She was holding broccoli in her fist like a banana/lollipop and biting it.

later on I asked her to use her cutlery and she had it in the wrong hands and was totally
clueless how to hold it.

in addition to this she lies down at the table, sits on her phone, spills food down herself, chews with her mouth open and is generally lacking in table manners.

I work in education and have children myself and I am astonished at how immature she is. She behaves more like a 6/7 year old. She is clearly bright, but speaks in a very baby voice and asks the most silly questions for her age. I worry she’ll be targeted at school by bullies.

WIBU to say to my partner I won’t eat out with them again until he teaches her how to use cutlery? I don’t feel it’s my place to pull her up on her table manners (although I have done several times).

I just realised I sound like my mother! 😂

How does your partner eat? Do you eat regularly together at a table?

Agree it’s poor table manners but this is down to her parents, including your husband, he is the one you should be addressing this with initially.

It is widely accepted that if you’re right handed you hold your knife in your right hand and fork in left. If you’re left handed then you would swap around

oh, do give over. My DH is right handed and holds the knife in his left hand, as does one of my kids, as they claim it’s more comfortable. Then I have another who also does it but they are a leftie. I’ve never run screaming from a restaurant because right handed DH and a child are holding knives/forks like a leftie. They immediately swap cutlery over on sitting down, and often the wait person will say ‘oh, left handed’, and DH says ‘no, just preference’. We eat, pay, leave. Who cares.

I completely agree with your last paragraph. Shaming the girl herself is not the way forward, this needs addressing with the parents.

Do you always eat at the table together? If you don't then you should start doing now for every meal.

Husband and I are both left handed . I use knife in left hand and he uses knife in right hand. All the children are right handed ,but use knife in left hand . It really doesn’t matter 🤷‍♀️As long as food gets into mouth and not thrown around ,is all I care about!

The reason that there's a convention of right hand for knife and left for fork is actually not about the dominant hand, as both actions require dexterity but not a particular left to right motion that makes it so tricky to use scissors or write for a left hander. It's actually so that when you're sitting at a formal table you're not constantly bashing elbows with your neighbours!
No one is trying to say that people with a disability should conform just for the hell of it, there's actually a social reason for this and nothing to do with left/ right neurological differences.
Maybe we could suggest that people just write on a page however they want, maybe choose left to write or right to left ? Or down the way? Communication with others, who cares ?

Left to RIGHT obviously...

OP you haven't responded to questions about whether this child has potential SEN/ autism/adhd

You say she is 12 but appears a lot younger - you may need to address this properly rather than just pick on the eating.

I am 37 and have sat at many a crowded dinner table. Never have I once bashed elbows with someone else. How would that even happen? I thought it was bad manners to splay your elbows out when you eat?

And how is this in any way comparable to writing? Which way I choose to eat affects no one but myself.

The OP says in her second post "no disability, no SEN, no reason why she shouldn’t be able to."

Not always. I know two people who are definitely right-handed, yet both of them use a knife and fork as if they were left-handed. It looks very awkward, to me, but neither of them has ever felt comfortable using cutlery in the conventional right-handed way.

My kids are right handed but both cut with knife in left.

Started with fork in right hand & automatically just took up knife with left.

OP, I really wouldn't say or do anything. This is for the parents to notice and rectify. I doubt there will be any improvement. Maybe they don't notice or maybe there's no 'fix' for whatever reason.
You can't make the child your problem because she has her own parents and it is their responsibility to educate or improve on behaviour where this is possible (depending in the child's ability).

Personally, I wouldn't want to be part of meal when someone has such appalling table manners. I could ignore some of the behaviour but a lot of it is simply not something I'd want to witness at my own table.

The thing is, she will be in your life for the foreseeable future. Unless you can avoid all future table eating interactions without causing inconvenience to you and others, I'd reconsider whether it's worth you having this man as your DP.
Or just accept it will always be like this and either let it go over your head or get somewhat irritated by the behaviour. Can you do this for many years to come? Is it worth it?

I'm quite well educated thank you.

There are lots of things that involve two hands that you have one thing to do with your left and another with your right.

Driving. Most people in the UK manage to change gear with their left hand regardless of whether they are left or right handed.

Riding a motorbike.

Intubating someone, a laryngoscope is used in the left hand and the airway in the right - for everyone.

Have you ever been to a formal dinner where someone using the wrong hands causes elbows to bump with other people? Where the glasses are always set to the right?

Have you ever used a steak or fish knife, they are designed to be used in the right hand.

As for a developmental impact, who are you kidding?

This thread is an exercise in missing the point.

I have been to a formal dinner where people use the "wrong" hands.

The person was me.

I went to Cambridge and have dined at high table, so very formal.

On the other hand I am visibly disabled, so maybe they understood that the real point of manners is to make everyone as comfortable as possible, even those who cannot or do not use the "standard" manners.

His child, his problem. Stay out of it.

I have voted YABU. I am a step mother of (now) teenage children that cannot use cutlery properly and have all-round abominable table manners. I have learned to ignore it and to just lead by example. They have other qualities that I love very much and I just focus on enjoying those / any shared interests we have together.

If these children require correct table manners as adults, (for work functions or on dates) they will figure it out. Especially because they have watched me, and other people that do have table manners, for most of their lives. If they do not ever need to eat with cutlery and use napkins… then no harm. It does not affect me.
However, if I have an awful relationship with them into adulthood, because I made a big deal out of something that millions of other people don’t give two shiny shits about… that will affect me. We will have all lost the opportunity to have a good relationship over tiny bullshit like a fork.

This is a step parenting lesson that spans more than just cutlery btw. Pick your battles. It’s much much more rewarding to have a loving relationship with your partner’s children (of any age) than to wear yourself out arguing over all the ways you would raise them differently.

Remember lots of people would disagree with the way you’ve raised your kids too.

And this is not to say you should roll over and be a doormat either. That is the “pick your battles” that I am talking about. I have always insisted that my step children flush the toilet when they’re done, for example. Because I am not their poo maid. I am also very “strict” about safety matters, of course. I have a responsibility to keep all children safe when in my home - even if they are not my own.

But I’ve just ignored things like “they’ve been on screens for 15 hours” and “they just ate a steak with their hands”. I remind all children to do their homework but I do not get cross when my step children ignore said reminders. I ask all children to please make their beds but I just shut the door when they inevitably do not.

When my own children ask me why there is one rule for their half siblings and another for them I explain that there is not. The same rules apply to absolutely everyone, but I cannot enforce them to the same degree with all children. And lots of reminders that all children are loved very much and have equal standing in our home, regardless of who makes their bed best or knows which way up a fork should be held.

I’m not saying this works for everyone but, it’s proven the recipe to a long and happy marriage / relationship with my step children.

Let this cutlery thing go.

Also, today I learned that there are no wrong hands for cutlery!? (So ignorant!)

I would say it's a classic example of a child thathasn't been shown how to behave at the table. Drives me insane!

We can take our DC anywhere and they know how to behave and we are regularly complimented on it. They can sit at a table, use cutlery and have a conversation as that is what they have done since they were old enough to eat. We have always sat at the table, no phones and talked to each other. It means taking them out is a pleasure and they love going out for dinner.

You reap what you sow.

Oh gosh, I had no idea this would have this kind of response. I don’t really want to engage too much as I kind of wish I’d never posted it, but I will clarify a few things:

It was a lazily-written first post and I probably should have said that I was being a little light-hearted in suggesting a lesson in table manners.

My main AIBU was kind of will my boyfriend dump me if I refuse to eat out/is it really none of my business to suggest he helps her with her table manners.

He is my boyfriend and we don’t live together.

I haven’t cooked for the child. I’ve noticed poor table manners before when we ate out but it was particularly highlighted last week. Having thought about it, I suppose a) I thought she might rise to the occasion of a nice restaurant and b) when we have eaten out before it’s usually been burgers/pizza or something which I suppose doesn’t require such a level of knife and fork action!

I am not a teacher.

I have SEN children of my own and have a LOT of experience working with children but I am not an expert in child behaviour, SEN etc.

Nobody has voiced any question of SEN, and I don’t think she is, but having read some replies I had not considered dyspraxia. I also don’t know much about her earlier childhood but I know she lacks confidence.

She has an older sibling who can manage the table and cutlery perfectly well, as can her father. I have not seen her mother eat 😉

I had no intention of embarrassing her, bullying her, or setting her plate on the floor for her to eat off.

I am somewhat turned off by it, but I have gently pulled her up on a couple of small things before and she responds very well to constructive criticism. I feel I could certainly help her without making this an issue. The following day, I kindly and in an upbeat manner spoke to her about whether she was left or right handed and showed her how to use her cutlery and she giggled and said how much easier it was to cut up whatever it was she was eating (I forget).

When I said left-handed people switch hands, I meant and should have said, that from what I have seen they “generally” do. I have no issue with someone using the knife and fork in the other hands. I admit I do have an issue when I see adults holding cutlery in fists and tearing food apart. But I do have colleagues and friends who do this and still like them for goodness sake!

Widely-accepted is exactly that and is not a rule, so just because you don’t follow the norm doesn’t mean it is therefore not “widely-accepted”.

Her mother and father are both very nice, well-mannered people.

When I mentioned I worry about her being bullied, I meant specifically for the baby voice. Having said that, I have heard children comment more than once on others’ table manners.

We are all brought up in different ways. I was brought up that table manners, and manners in general were important to give a good impression both as a child and later in life. I consider myself to be inclusive.

Above all, apart from how it “looks” at the table, she is/was actually struggling to eat the food!

well that is a nice update, so thankyou.Is her baby voice constant? I have a good freind with a daughter with a baby voice. I have never mentioned it but I have come to the conclusion it is out of her control. It is constant, and it makes her sound whiny, but I have baby sat for her many times, she is not remotely whiny, girly, or babyish in the content of her speech, just in the voice. I think she was born with it. She is 12 now and it has not changed

@Mannersdomatter If she responded well, then I think gentle reminders in the future will have a positive effect on her if that's something you're willing to do :)

I know you say she’s not diagnosed with ASD but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any underlying neurodivergency issues. Speaking in a baby voice / acting ‘astonishingly’ young for her age (in your words) are classic signs, so I don’t know why you’re so determined to brush off anyone mentioning neurodivergency.

I don’t think there would be anything wrong with gently bringing up some of the issues you mentioned to your partner. You say she responds very well to constructive criticism so some gentle advice from her dad might be a huge help for her.

Apologies if these have already been mentioned upthread, but if the child's parents have not encountered these traits before, they are easily dismissed as quirky behaviour and their possibility of being markers for SN/ND can be easily missed.

Emotional immaturity is a possible marker for SN/ Neorodiversity. Not all SN/ND children and adults have it, but it's just one of a very long list of possibilities that could be a red flag. As a very rough guide, a child can have an emotional age around two-thirds of their chronological age and this becomes much more evident as the child reaches secondary age.

It also includes asking 'silly' questions and when asked questions, answering with every roundabout point but missing the specific point of the question.

Ditto inability to use cutlery. There is a massive chasm between can not and will not. I'd suggest giving the child a set of Caring Cutlery, the type that has indentations for the index finger on the knife and fork and also has tapered fat handles which could be helpful if there is difficulty encountered in using slim stainless steel cutlery, Caring Cutlery can help a child or adult to have much better control. As is the case with every intervention, it does not present the ideal solution for everyone.

The above are only a very small example of some traits that may be considered markers for SN/ND in some children.

Im not determined to brush off - there could well be discussions I’m not party to but nothing has been said to me and I have two asd children so not an expert but fairly clued up.