To think this “crackdown” on benefit fraud is absolutely pathetic

[MissLou0]

We lose hundreds of billions from tax avoidance compared to 1 billion on benefit fraud and nothing is done about it, because those are the Tory donors. Michelle Mone just stole £28 million from taxpayers for her PPE scam, she’s not in trouble, and she of course also hides her hundreds of millions offshore.

We lose a small amount from benefit fraud, and as a result everyone who claims any sort of benefit including disability benefits banks are going to be monitored.

The graph below doesn’t even scratch the surface of how much is lost to tax avoidance. For example Rupert Murdoch is worth £17 billion and he hasn’t paid tax in years, personal tax or on his businesses. And he’s ONE person. These people are not targeted yet the most desperate and vulnerable are.

This is completely ignored by the media as the majority of newspaper owners are hiding their money offshore.

I’m in a situation where I don’t need to claim any benefits but I have family who are disabled who have had to fight for even the tiniest amount to live on, and they are now having to deal with this invasion of privacy which will make not even 0.000001% of what cracking down on tax avoidance would.

I read a news article about a woman who had her benefits stopped because the DWP thought she had a live in partner. The evidence? Bank transactions from a 'Martin McColl'. That is a shop chain! She had to prove that it was a shop and not a real person.

Which is the same as the minimum wage now.

The government is proposing making the work capability assessment harder to meet (the bar is already extremely low - it assesses your ability to ANY job so for example one if the "tests" currently is whether you can press a button or turn the pages of a book).

The justification is that people can now all work from home and that employers are now really flexible to disabled workers and can implement a multitude of reasonable adjustments so that basically almost everyone can work. As disabled people know, the reality is far from the truth! And only office work of a certain type can really be completed from home. If you are not capable of office work then home working is not an option for you at all. The changes do not account for the types of work that are actually available on the job market nor does it take account if an individual's capability (and by that I mean job skills, education and intelligence). You will either meet the test or don't, and if not you will get required to attend regular work coach appointments, complete work related activities and/or actively seek work (which involves applying for a certain number of jobs and evidencing you have done so. Essentially ill and disabled people will be forced to look for work and complete activities beyond their capabilities as issues related to mobilising, getting out and about and incontinence will no longer be considered or you'll get fewer points for them.

The changes proposed are:

• Removing the mobilising activity entirely or changing it by bringing the distances to 20 metres down from 50 metres or reducing the points awarded for the mobilising activity. Remember that mobilising is not about people in wheelchairs. You don't have to walk the distance. Mobilising the required distances in a wheelchair currently means you won't get any points. People who have trouble mobilising are often dealing with lung conditions/breathlessness/chronic pain/chronic fatigue etc.

• Removing the getting about activity or reduce the points awarded for that activity. The getting about activity is part of the assessment of someone's mental, cognitive or intellectual functions. So can you work out how to get somewhere or your own. Can you go somewhere but only accompanied because of overwhelm or anxiety etc.

• Removing the coping with social engagement activity or reducing the points awarded for it. Because when you work from home obviously you never have to engage with anyone at work. As you know Teams and Zoom don't exist. Sorry for the sarcasm but it's fucking ridiculous. Anyhow again people usually score points in this activity if they have certain anxiety disorders or autism.

• Removing the "absence or loss of bladder control" activity or amend it so that you have to experience symptoms daily rather than weekly (presumably because they think people can schedule their incontinence for their days off). Or reduce the points awarded for this activity. I think they think that proper can work from home next to their own toilet where they can clean up if needed. But as already mentioned there aren't actually that many working from home jobs (most are hybrid if not 100% in the office) and not all jobs can be done at home anyway.

• Changing the substantial risk category. This category is for people who would not otherwise meet the criteria but if they were not found to have a Limited Capability for Work or Limited Capability for Work Related Activity this would cause a substantial risk to them or someone else. This for example might be where someone is at significant risk of a heart attack and is awaiting surgery. Doctors have said they are not well enough to work and/or complete Work Related Activity so they might therefore qualify under substantial risk. Government want to make it harder for people to get found to have a LCWRA in this circumstance either by changing the rules or by removing this altogether and therefore by making people complete activities, when their doctors have said are too unwell to do any activity. This one concerns me the most tbh.

They are intending to bring this in in 2025.

I actually think this about reducing the number of people who are in the LCWRA group. The numbers of people in this group has increase in the last couple of years, and people in this group get more money (as they are the most ill/disabled). The criteria and assessment hasn't changed in this period. But rather than looking at why people are getting more unwell (I suspect covid has had a big impact (long Covid, mental health) along with the cost of living crisis (again mental health but also ill health from poor living standard I suspect) they see just going to make it harder for the ill and disabled by making it harder for them to qualify for benefits and by reducing their income.

In addition to this (in was actually announced prior to this change but won't come in for a few years yet) they want to get rid of the WCA altogether and just have the test that applies to PIP. This makes no sense as the WCA is about the ability to work and PIP is available to both people in or out of work if they meet the criteria. PIP is also WAY harder to get. Not just because of the criteria but because the process is set up to put people off. Usually people do not get the points they are entitled to at initial assessment and they have to appeal which takes months and months and involves going before a judge! Which is understandably just too much for many people when they are sick physically or mentally. The WCA does ime tend to have fairer outcomes currently and fewer claims have to be challenged/appealed. Probably what the Tories don't like. We can't make it too fair for the poor, sick and disabled now can we!

Rosscameasdoody
The legislation is being put in place, and AI makes it easier to implement. It’s already being done now to a certain extent because the agreement between benefit claimants and DWP involves the acceptance that DWP will share and collect information about you between various agencies. This is just an extension of that.

"You've made countless posts on this thread along the same sinister lines. Please be responsible and post links to where you're getting this detailed, government 'fait accomplis' narrative from, because there are a lot of medically anxious MN users reading. You sound like you know what you're talking about, so please show your sources for this unsettling scenario."

She's correct. That legislation came in a while back. Chip chip chip. It's a gradual erosion of privacy and civil liberties. They try to sneak it in before anyone realises what has happened.

I rather that benefits goes to the people who really need it. Benefit fraud is wrong. Why is this so difficult to understand? They are taking away from the disabled and genuine cases. No wonder why it gets harder and harder to get them.

Nobody is saying it’s not wrong.

The constant focus on it (even their own figures say fraud and error is 0.1%) is disproportionate.

And the repeated changes made supposedly to make it harder for these small amount of people take it away from people who need it because of the difficulties they face.

This!

Is your argument because group A do something wrong we shouldn't find out if group B are doing something wrong?

They aren’t proposing this for both though, only for the population that aren’t their rich buddies, only for the population who can least afford any interruption to their income, only for those who can’t afford legal action against the government. Oddly enough if you’re rich and defrauding the government it’s not considered so serious that your human rights are compromised - if you’re poor however…

You've never claimed benefits have you?

The government already has to power it needs to look at your account. @Rosscameasdoody is not scaremongering. There is already an agreed contract in place with DWP for AI to do these checks. Nor is it new to stop payments. Nor is it against your human rights as the basic powers to check are in legislation already which is compatible with the Human Rights Act.

She is not scaremongering. She is pointing out accurately that all the Government is doing is to extend the power to do this via AI. And that is already legal to do. It is just that AI is going to be much faster and effective in making these assessments than civil servants and it is cheaper.

Is it fair or kind is another matter.

Murdoch isn’t British and doesn’t live in the U.K. why would he pay tax here?

But you tell the DWP as I did on Friday 1st October 2021 that I was not entitled to the monthly universal credit which was pending for payout 7 days later (I have witnesses and proof of the conversation which my family were in hysteric’s over and honestly kept asking if I’d received wages it was that bad as which I had) my employer was simply late at the time notifying HMRC of payday which caused Universal Credit to become alive and want to randomly pay out. I was not listened to once on the day by DWP call centre staff.

Only when a PIP form went in 17 months later ironically (which I have never heard back from in now 8 months) I am then being asked to repay a DWP mistake - after making a lump sump payment toward the £400 odd with NO penalty I hate to disappoint you I today pay £10 a month just in time to avoid any further action such as attachment of earnings, I’m sorry but DWP aren’t victims and yes I will be asking where my information in regards to a PIP application made 8 months ago went.

Tax avoidance is legal. Fraud is illegal.
In reality
"The 10% of income taxpayers with the largest incomes contribute over 60% of income tax receipts. The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS)"
Tax revenue should be wisely and efficiently spent so benefit fraud should be correctly dealt with just as any other fraudulent activity.

Most people that I know work hard for their money and pay tax; I don’t enjoy the idea of anyone freeloading. Do benefit fraudsters have the moral high ground? They are cheating the community. They aren’t all impecunious, either. I don’t want people to avoid tax, but both sets of criminals should be prosecuted and made to repay what they owe to schools, hospitals etc.

We don't know and neither does the DWP, which is why their figure is an estimate. However even that's based only on those who've been caught, so the real figure will be higher

And no, big business/government fraud isn't justifiable either

I'd like to know exactly who voted for this. Apparently over half the people asked said this was an acceptable way to monitor people. I am disabled living on £700 a month. When I heard about this, I decided that I will withdraw my money in cash and spend it this way. I also think that we should be able to see government statements, that's more important for the country. It's ridiculous, surely benefit fraud would involve people working for cash, how is this going to catch them?

Of course they won’t go after the tax avoiders, they’re all in bed together and licking each other’s arses, far better to target the vulnerable because they don’t matter to the Tories and they’re easy pickings, another example of how fucking corrupt this government is, they’re disgusting

Please make that claim. There are plenty of organisations/charities that can help you. The government rely on people like you not bothering to claim, hence so many unclaimed benefits. The wording on the claim form is crucial and it's also imperative that you submit a copy of your prescription list (or a list of your medications) and copies of all the relevant medical letters etc. Good luck!

Have you heard of benefit tourism OP? People who claim benefits here and don’t live in the U.K. Taking up housing that nobody lives in.

It’s not a victimless crime.

Yeah, think it can be summed up as 'lets give people who are sure to vote Tory a massive break, and clamp down on people who would never vote for us'.

I am not sure 38 billion in benefit fraud is ok. That is just the people they caught…

Except that the group A are by far the more vulnerable, have to fight for every penny just to get by, & the tax evaders are hardly skint to start with, & are doing it because they can. Not because they need to live

I agree with OP & would go further to say that it's rubbish that people on benefits struggle so much & IMO only committed fraud because they're put in the position of not being able to get by in the first place