Page 4 | to think it's not appropriate for school trip to include a visit to a bullring?

Merula · 2023-11-07T14:22:50+00:00

Interested to hear your views. Our school have announced a trip to Madrid, which will include a visit to a bullring. Obviously it will not be while a bull fight is occurring, but there is a fee to visit the bullring, so in effect, by paying for my child to attend, we will be supporting bullfighting. A previous trip to Spain included a visit to a dolphinarium. Would you be ok with this or would you question the appropriateness with the school?

Startyabastard · 07/11/2023 20:06

Merula · 07/11/2023 14:46

I see what you're saying, and it's true that I would pay to visit the Colosseum now, however, I wouldn't pay if they were still fighting to the death there today. I don't think it's quite the same.

Edited

Exactly gladiator wars aren't still going on and you wouldn't be paying for their advocacy.

zozueme · 07/11/2023 20:26

spirit20 · 07/11/2023 19:23

I'm a head of an MFL department who regularly organises trips to Spain, and we have visited bullrings in the past. Tours to a bullring present both sides of the argument and the topic of bullfighting is covered on the A-Level syllabuses of most of the exam boards, where the various opinions are covered. The buildings are also of architectural significance and very impressive to see.

If a parent did email me to complain about us visiting it, I would send a curt email back informing them that the choice of what to include on the itinerary is that of the individual teachers. I would also add that the trip is optional, and if they do not wish their child to visit it, then they should simply not send their child on the trip.

I'm curious why you think a parent raising concerns about this deserves a "curt email" in reply?

BrightGreenMoonBuggy · 07/11/2023 21:05

I would not be prepared to contribute in any way to bullfighting. YANBU.

StillWantingADog · 07/11/2023 21:09

I’m very anti bullfighting but I think I’d be ok with this. The buildings are of important cultural and historical significance

i also appreciate the artwork associated with bullfighting even though I find the sport abhorrent

Dunnoburt · 07/11/2023 21:10

I wouldn't be happy about paying.... this has flashed me back to a A Level trip to Paris to go to the art museums.....I could only have been about 16 ish at the time and I vividly remember the only TV channel we could get in the hotel was a "bull fight"....it was awful seeing the poor thing loaded up with darts and bleeding to death..the boys loved it.....me not so much.....learn about it ....yes.....donate to it...no.

Dunnoburt · 07/11/2023 21:11

Dunnoburt · 07/11/2023 21:10

I wouldn't be happy about paying.... this has flashed me back to a A Level trip to Paris to go to the art museums.....I could only have been about 16 ish at the time and I vividly remember the only TV channel we could get in the hotel was a "bull fight"....it was awful seeing the poor thing loaded up with darts and bleeding to death..the boys loved it.....me not so much.....learn about it ....yes.....donate to it...no.

Donate the wrong word.... you know what I mean! Encourage it etc. (And yes.....it was a Spanish channel despite being in Paris)

saraclara · 07/11/2023 21:14

Who'd be a teacher, giving up their time to take kids abroad, with all the responsibility and hard work that goes with it.

There are some architecturally famous bullrings that have already been mentioned, and the tour and educational element will absolutely not be pro-bullfighting.

Trust your children to be able to listen critically, and trust their teachers (and profusely thank them for giving up their time planning, organising, and doing 24 hour days with no extra pay).

QPWO · 07/11/2023 21:16

Unless you’re vegan then you’re probably supporting animal cruelty far more directly than this (no judgement, I’m not a vegan), so I would personally take your child’s lead on it.

PabloandGustheGreySquirrels · 07/11/2023 21:17

No my child would not be going

BrokenButNotFinished · 07/11/2023 21:43

I went to the bullring when I was in Madrid, as an adult. It thought it culturally interesting, whilst at the same time finding animal cruelty and blood sports abhorrent.

Some of the 'finest' bull specimens are stuffed and displayed throughout - and the holding pens absolutely stink of the urine of animals that I would conclude are under stress.

There is not much glamour to it, to my mind, something which will likely be evident to those attending. That's still not a reason not to go. One school trip is not going to have much financial impact on the event - & it's part of being educated in the Humanities to explore and comprehend ideas you may not actually agree with.

stickygotstuck · 07/11/2023 21:51

Maddy70 · 07/11/2023 16:15

The building is incredible. So much artwork inside it. It's almost like a museum-art gallery. They aren't going to a bull fight. they are going on a tour of a very famous building

Its spectacular and opens debate which serves educationally.

I hate kids being kept in boxes and being told what to think. Let them decide for themselves

I couldn't agree more.

stickygotstuck · 07/11/2023 21:53

QPWO · 07/11/2023 21:16

Unless you’re vegan then you’re probably supporting animal cruelty far more directly than this (no judgement, I’m not a vegan), so I would personally take your child’s lead on it.

And this! (also not a vegan)

Whatsgoingon12345 · 07/11/2023 22:19

*visited a bullring in Madrid with my secondary school in year 9.
It was extremely interesting and explored a lot of Spanish history.
The teachers and us pupils were not pro bull fighting but simply learning about this part of their culture.
It was part of a whole trip to Madrid that included visiting lots of the landmarks, including the football stadium.

Let your child go and discover their own thoughts and opinions without their parent controlling their thoughts and sabotaging their experiences.
They’re old enough to question the humanity behind it and no doubt it will be discussed with their peers and teachers.*
this. They are going to Spain to learn about Spain. Not some watered down Disney fied version that suits our current societies cultural mores.

saraclara · 07/11/2023 22:38

Let your child go and discover their own thoughts and opinions without their parent controlling their thoughts and sabotaging their experiences.
They’re old enough to question the humanity behind it and no doubt it will be discussed with their peers and teachers.

100% that. You cannot control all your child's experiences and all their opinions. It's the experiences they have without you, and the opinions and conclusions that they form for themselves from those experiences, that are the deepest and most valuable

GuessItsANameChange · 08/11/2023 03:03

saraclara · 07/11/2023 22:38

Let your child go and discover their own thoughts and opinions without their parent controlling their thoughts and sabotaging their experiences.
They’re old enough to question the humanity behind it and no doubt it will be discussed with their peers and teachers.

100% that. You cannot control all your child's experiences and all their opinions. It's the experiences they have without you, and the opinions and conclusions that they form for themselves from those experiences, that are the deepest and most valuable

If the thread was about the OP wanting to control her daughter’s thoughts or experiences, this would be a relevant response.

DiscoBeat · 08/11/2023 03:06

I really wouldn't be happy with this either. Raise it with the school.

ginasevern · 08/11/2023 09:50

@spirit20

You'd send a curt email to a parent with concerns about a notoriously controversial subject? I'm afraid you'd get a curt email back in that case. Sounds like you're in the wrong job.

JustWhatWeDontNeed · 08/11/2023 10:15

Bluedabadeeba · 07/11/2023 19:38

What a fantastic way of opening a debate and critical thought. Hopefully it will be used as an opportunity for a cultural understanding of the history AND the debate surrounding it. Let's see how the young people make up their minds!

(FWIW) I actually went to SEE a bullfight when I was 11 where they didn't kill the bull as it was a 'kids' showing', shortly before I became a vegetarian for life. In my 20s, living in the south, my entire group of friends went to see one (for the first time) and I declined.. most of them came out feeling quite traumatised by the experience.

Anyway, not sure, but I think in Madrid, it's very rarely practiced these days - I get the impression most people are against it there. Mostly very cultural entrenched in the south though, from what I understand. Either way, part of the Spanish culture nevertheless.

You are sadly mistaken.

From the venue website:

The bullfighting season
It starts at the end of March and ends in mid-October. During those months a total of more than 70 festivities are celebrated, normally every Sunday (except in Summer when it takes place on Thursdays), except for the two great annual fairs.
The most important Fair that is celebrated at Las Ventas bullring is the one of San Isidro, patron of Madrid, in which there are 30 festivities during the months of May-June.
For more information on schedules and fares, see the website www.las-ventas.com

It's an active and horrific part of the Spanish culture and one that struggles to get outlawed. There are few areas which have banned it and Catalonia's ban was overturned. Bull runs are equally awful and still happen every year. It's a barbaric "sport" with no tangible benefit to anyone other than breeders.

You can learn about both sides of the coin without funding it. I'd send her to Spain but I'd not pay to enter an actively used bullring.

saraclara · 08/11/2023 10:30

GuessItsANameChange · 08/11/2023 03:03

If the thread was about the OP wanting to control her daughter’s thoughts or experiences, this would be a relevant response.

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Well if OP tries to either stop her DC from going on that part of the trip, or her complaint prevents the entire school party from going, then she IS trying to control her DC's experiences.

Megifer · 08/11/2023 10:35

QPWO · 07/11/2023 21:16

Unless you’re vegan then you’re probably supporting animal cruelty far more directly than this (no judgement, I’m not a vegan), so I would personally take your child’s lead on it.

As a recent convert to veganism (so probably at the most militant stage 🤣 I think saying "you shouldn't care about any animal cruelty whatsoever because you like bacon." is a very strange point to make. Like its ok then if op kicks puppies because she eats meat, because at least she's not a hypocrite?

It's a really bizarre argument.

Bluedabadeeba · 08/11/2023 10:48

JustWhatWeDontNeed · 08/11/2023 10:15

You are sadly mistaken.

From the venue website:

The bullfighting season
It starts at the end of March and ends in mid-October. During those months a total of more than 70 festivities are celebrated, normally every Sunday (except in Summer when it takes place on Thursdays), except for the two great annual fairs.
The most important Fair that is celebrated at Las Ventas bullring is the one of San Isidro, patron of Madrid, in which there are 30 festivities during the months of May-June.
For more information on schedules and fares, see the website www.las-ventas.com

It's an active and horrific part of the Spanish culture and one that struggles to get outlawed. There are few areas which have banned it and Catalonia's ban was overturned. Bull runs are equally awful and still happen every year. It's a barbaric "sport" with no tangible benefit to anyone other than breeders.

You can learn about both sides of the coin without funding it. I'd send her to Spain but I'd not pay to enter an actively used bullring.

Show quote history

Oh dear. Sorry about that - I stand corrected. Horrified to see how frequently it happens!

Half my family is Spanish, so I think I was just going off the fact that most of them find it as awful as we do - I guess I need to do some solid research about it before spouting off anecdote-based opinions 😣

I'll definitely be asking around to see what they think though. Not sure how it can still be happening in this day and age!!

coolkatt · 08/11/2023 10:52

i wouldn't be doing anything that even acknowledges bullfighting exsists. don't give a shot about culture they should all be pulled down. i would not allow my child there to even experiance a visit to one. they can read about the cruelty that happens there without actually stepping into one.

WimpiestMum · 08/11/2023 11:16

I misread your title and thought you meant the bull ring shopping centre in Birmingham and was going to say yes that's a bit of a pointless trip but no big dea

Anyway, I understand your misgivings but I think it's an important part of their culture (and I'm sure as many Spanish disagree with bull fighting as those that support it or more) and a great learning opportunity. It will also inspire the kids to think and to come to their own conclusions or have a debate about animal rights and that is always a good thing.

I do understand that you don't want to support it by paying the entrance fee and I think that's a valid point as well.

So to summarize I'm not sure what you should do and my post is almost as pointless as a school trip to the bullring (in Birmingham) would be. :-)

I'd let me kids go though.

QPWO · 08/11/2023 11:39

Megifer · 08/11/2023 10:35

As a recent convert to veganism (so probably at the most militant stage 🤣 I think saying "you shouldn't care about any animal cruelty whatsoever because you like bacon." is a very strange point to make. Like its ok then if op kicks puppies because she eats meat, because at least she's not a hypocrite?

It's a really bizarre argument.

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No it’s more about what’s your own moral responsibility and what’s up to others. As a mere wishy washy vegetarian, I wouldn’t tell my partner not to eat a bacon butty when out while I still buy dairy products. Similarly I personally wouldn’t instigate or join in with this trip but I would let a teenager make their own decisions about it because it would be hypocritical to interfere when I could have a bigger impact on animal welfare by tightening up my own dietary hypocrisies.

GuessItsANameChange · 08/11/2023 21:50

saraclara · 08/11/2023 10:30

Well if OP tries to either stop her DC from going on that part of the trip, or her complaint prevents the entire school party from going, then she IS trying to control her DC's experiences.

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No, she’s refusing to financially support something that she is opposed to. Were it free entry (or if DC was somehow paying), and the OP was still objecting, that would be an entirely different matter.